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ÐAND€THEN€AT€THE€END€ANY€ISSUES€THAT€WERE€NOT€ADDRESSEDÏAT€YESTERDAY'S€HEARING,€BUT€THAT€INDIVIDUAL€MEMBERSÏBELIEVE€WITH€RESPECT€TO€APPLICABILITY€OR€ANY€OF€THEÏOTHER€ISSUES€ARE€IMPORTANT€AND€SHOULD€BE€BROUGHT€UP€FORÏDISCUSSION,€BECAUSE€OF€YOUR€OWN€INDIVIDUAL€REVIEW€OF€THEÏPACKAGE,€WE€CAN€GO€AHEAD€AND€BRING€THOSE€UP€AT€THEÏAPPROPRIATE€TIME.€€Ìà àà x àTHAT€SHOULD€AT€LEAST€GIVE€US€THE€ABILITY€TOÏPRESENT€TO€THE€AGENCY€SOME€INPUT€THAT€IS€NECESSARY€FORÏTHEM€TO€GET€ANY€BENEFIT€FROM€THE€FACA€PROCESS;€AND€AT€AÏCOUPLE€OF€PLACES€IN€THE€PROCEEDING,€WE€WILL€ALSO€BEÏOPENING€IT€UP€FOR€ANY€COMMENT€FROM€THE€PUBLIC€AS€WELL.€€Ìà àà x àSO€IF€THERE'S€NO€OBJECTION€TO€THAT€PROCESS,ÏLET€ME€START€BY€ADDRESSING€OR€RAISING€FOR€YOU€SOME€OFÏTHE€CONCERNS€AND€ISSUES€AND€QUESTIONS€THAT€WEREÏIDENTIFIED€WITH€RESPECT,UNDER€APPLICABILITY,TO€WHATÏHAS€BEEN€IDENTIFIED€AS€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXCLUSION€ANDÏUNLESS€THEY--PROBABLY€THE€CLEAN€FACILITY€EXCLUSION€ASÏWELL,€BECAUSE€THERE€WASN'T€A€LOT€OF€DIFFERENTIATION€WITHÏRESPECT€TO€THESE€ISSUES€YESTERDAY.€Ìà àà x àBASICALLY,€THERE€WERE€FIVE€ISSUES€THATÏAPPEARED€TO€COME€UP€IN€MOST€OF€THE€TESTIMONY.€€FIRST€OFÏALL,€THERE€WAS€BOTH€A€CONCERN€ON€INDUSTRY,€STATES,€ANDÐ ¨+p$, ÐENVIRONMENTAL€INTERESTS€THAT€THE€LIMITATION€ON€THE€CLEANÏUNIT€EXCLUSION€WOULD€BE€TIED€TO€A€BACT€AND€LAERÏDETERMINATION.€€THERE€WERE,€FROM€INDUSTRY'S€STANDPOINT,ÏQUESTIONS€AS€TO€WHY€IT€WAS€LIMITED€TO€BACT€AND€LAER.€ÏWHY€WASN'T€MACT€OR€RACT€OR€EVEN€NETTING€OUT€ALLOWED€TOÏPARTICIPATE€IN€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXCLUSION?Ìà àà x àSECOND,€THERE€WAS€A€QUESTION€ABOUT€THEÏTEN-YEAR€WINDOW€OF€APPLICABILITY€FOR€REVIEW€AS€TOÏWHETHER€OR€NOT€INDIVIDUAL€PIECES€OF€EQUIPMENT,€OR€THEÏFACILITY€ITSELF,€HAD€GONE€THROUGH€A€BACT€OR€LAERÏANALYSIS.€€AND€THE€CONCERNS€THERE€WERE,€YOU€KNOW,€ISÏTHIS€TOO€LONG?€€FOR€INSTANCE,€IF€YOU€LOOK€AT€A€TEN-YEARÏWINDOW€NOW,€THAT€MAY€NOT€HAVE€BEEN€A€BACT€DETERMINATIONÏTHAT€WAS€DONE€THROUGH€TOP-DOWN€BACT.€€AND€IS€THAT€AÏPROBLEM?€€Ìà àà x àHAS€TECHNOLOGY€CHANGED€SO€MUCH€THAT€THATÏTEN-YEAR€PERIOD--WE€WILL€LOSE€A€TECHNOLOGY€BENEFIT€INÏTERMS€OF€NEW€TECHNOLOGY?€€AND€SO€THERE€WAS€A€QUESTION€ASÏTO€WHETHER€OR€NOT€THERE€IS€AN€ADVERSE€„„€POTENTIAL€FORÏAN€ADVERSE€IMPACT€ON€ACTUAL€ADMISSIONS.€€AND€I€THINKÏUNSAID,€BUT€SOMETHING€THAT€WE€AS€A€COMMITTEE€SHOULDÏDISCUSS€IS,€YOU€KNOW,€DOES€NETTING€UNDER€THE€CURRENTÏPROGRAM€BASICALLY€ACCOMPLISH€THE€SAME€PROCESS€SO€THAT,Ð ¨+p$, ÐALTHOUGH€THESE€MAY€BE€VERY,€VERY€VALID€CONCERNS,€AREÏTHEY€CONCERNS€UNDER€THE€PRESENT€PROGRAM€AS€WELL?€€AND€ISÏTHERE€ANY€DIFFERENCE€BETWEEN€THE€PROPOSED€PROGRAM€ANDÏTHIS€PROGRAM?Ìà àà x àTHIRD,€THERE€WAS€A€„„€THERE€IS€A€PROPOSEDÏPROVISION€OF€TREATING€STATE€PROGRAMS€THAT€ARE€EQUIVALENTÏTO€BACT€OR€LAER€AS€EQUAL€TO€BACT€AND€LAER€FOR€THISÏPURPOSES€OF€THIS€EXCLUSION,€AND€THERE€WAS€A€QUESTIONÏTHAT€THERE€DIDN'T€APPEAR€TO€BE€ANY€STANDARDS€ORÏPROCEDURES,€ET€CETERA,€FOR€MAKING€THAT€EQUIVALENCYÏDETERMINATION€AND€THAT€THAT€OPENED€UP€MORE€COMPLEXITYÏFOR€THE€STATES,€MORE€BURDEN€FOR€THE€STATES,€AND€POSSIBLYÏBE€A€LESS€PROTECTIVE€ATMOSPHERE.Ìà àà x àFOURTH,€THE€TITLE€V€PROCESS€COULD€BE€USED€TOÏAPPROVE€CLEAN€UNITS,€PROBABLY€THROUGH€THE€MACT€AND€RACTÏANALYSIS-TYPE€ISSUES€THAT€SOME€PEOPLE€HAD€RAISED,€ANDÏTHERE€WAS€A€SUGGESTION€THAT€THIS€EXTREMELY€COMPLEXÏTITLEV€PROCESS€COULD,€IN€EFFECT,€OVERLOOK€A€CAREFULÏREVIEW€OF€THESE€INDIVIDUAL€UNITS€AND€LEAD€TO€BADÏDECISIONS.Ìà àà x àAND€THEN€FINALLY€THE€STATES,€I€THINK,€HAD€AÏUNIVERSAL€CONCERN€THAT€THIS€ENTIRE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXCLUSION,ÏAND€EVEN€A€CLEAN€FACILITY€EXCLUSION,€WAS€A€VERYÐ ¨+p$, ÐCOMPLICATED,€CASE-BY-CASE€ANALYSIS€THAT€STATES€FELTÏPLACED€GREATER€BURDEN€ON€THEM€UNDER€THIS€NEW€PROGRAMÏTHAN,€IN€FACT,€THERE€WOULD€BE€UNDER€THE€EXISTINGÏPROGRAM.€€AND€I€THINK€THEY€HAD€BUDGETARY€AND€PERSONNELÏCONSTRAINTS€IN€MIND,€AND€WE€SHOULD€TRY€TO€ADDRESSÏWHETHER€OR€NOT€THAT€TYPE€OF€INCREASED€COMPLEXITY€ISÏREALLY€THE€CASE.€€Ìà àà x àTHOSE€WERE,€TRYING€TO€BOIL€IT€DOWN,€THE€FIVEÏBASIC,€I€THINK,€SIGNIFICANT€ISSUES€THAT€WERE€RAISED.€ÏAND€I'D€LIKE€TO€ASK,€I€GUESS,€DAVID€SOLOMON€TO€ADDRESSÏTO€US,€AS€A€FACA,€UNDER€THE€CLEAN€EXCLUSION€AND€CLEANÏUNIT€AND€CLEAN€FACILITY€EXCLUSIONS€WHAT€THE€AGENCY€WASÏATTEMPTING€TO€PRESENT€TO€US,€WHAT€CONCEPTS€THEY€WEREÏATTEMPTING€TO€ADDRESS,€AND€POSSIBLY€TOUCHING€ON€SOME€OFÏTHESE,€ALTHOUGH€WE'RE€NOT€ASKING€HIM€FOR€A€DEFENSE€OFÏTHESE€KIND€OF€ISSUES.€€Ìà àà x àDAVID?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€THANKS,€PAT.Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àESSENTIALLY,€WHAT€THE€AGENCY€WAS€TRYING€TOÏACCOMPLISH€IN€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€TEST€WAS€TO€RECOGNIZE€THATÏTHERE€ARE€MANY€UNITS€OUT€THERE€THAT€DO€HAVEÏSTATE-OF-THE-ART€TECHNOLOGY€AND€TO€QUESTION€THE€VALUEÏADDED€IN€TERMS€OF€PUTTING€THOSE€UNITS€THROUGH€REVIEWÐ ¨+p$, ÐWHEN€THEY€MAKE€PHYSICAL€CHANGES€OR€CHANGES€IN€THE€METHODÏOF€OPERATION.Ìà àà x àIF€YOU€LOOK€AT€THE€PSD€PROCESS,€YOU€CANÏTRIGGER€PSD€REVIEW.€€RIGHT€NOW€WE€HAVE€THEÏACTUAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST.€€SO€IT'S€QUITE€POSSIBLE€TOÏHAVE€A€UNIT€„„€EVEN€A€FAIRLY€NEW€UNIT,€IF€IT€DOESN'TÏHAVE€A€HIGH€ENOUGH€BASELINE€AND€UNDERGOES€AÏMODIFICATION„„€TO€TRIGGER€REVIEW.€€THE€REVIEW€WOULDÏINCLUDE€A€TECHNOLOGY€REVIEW,€ESSENTIALLY€DETERMINING€IFÏANOTHER€TECHNOLOGY€OTHER€THAN€WHAT€IS€APPLIED€TO€THEÏUNIT€CURRENTLY€WOULD€BE€NECESSARY€IN€AN€AIR€QUALITYÏREVIEW.€Ìà àà x àTHE€AGENCY€FELT€THAT€IF€THE€UNIT€HADÏSTATE-OF-THE-ART€TECHNOLOGY€THE€ODDS€ARE/WERE€„„€THEÏODDS€WOULD€BE€THAT€THE€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROCESS€WOULDÏNOT€REQUIRE€A€DIFFERENT€TYPE€OF€TECHNOLOGY.€€AND€MOREÏLIKELY€THAN€NOT€IF€IT€WAS€A€FAIRLY€NEW€UNIT,€IF€IT€HADÏBEEN€PERMITTED€WITHIN€THE€LAST€TEN€YEARS€UNDER€BACT€ORÏLAER,€THERE€WOULD€HAVE€BEEN€AN€AIR€QUALITY€ASSESSMENTÏDONE€SO€THAT€THE€SOURCE'S€EMISSIONS€WOULD€HAVE€BEENÏDEMONSTRATED€NOT€TO€CAUSE€OR€CONTRIBUTE€TO€VIOLATIONS€OFÏAMBIENT€AIR€QUALITY€STANDARDS.Ìà àà x àWE€FELT€UNDER€THOSE€CIRCUMSTANCES€IT€MADEÐ ¨+p$, ÐSENSE€TO€AFFORD€THESE€UNITS€MAXIMUM€FLEXIBILITY€IN€TERMSÏOF€MAKING€PHYSICAL€CHANGES€OR€CHANGES€IN€METHOD€OFÏOPERATION€TO€THE€EXTENT€THAT€THEY€WOULD€NOT€BE€AÏRECONSTRUCTION.€€A€RECONSTRUCTION€WOULD€STILL€BE€TREATEDÏAS€A€NEW€UNIT.Ìà àà x àIN€LOOKING€AT€THE€VARIOUS€APPLICABILITYÏSCENARIOS€AVAILABLE,€WE€FOUND€THAT€ESSENTIALLY€A€NEWÏSOURCE€PERFORMANCE€STANDARD€„„€THAT€IS,€AN€HOURLYÏPOTENTIAL€TO€HOURLY€POTENTIAL€„„€WAS€A€TEST€THATÏPROVIDED€THE€MOST€FLEXIBILITY€TO€THESE€TYPE€OF€UNITSÏAND,€THEREFORE,€CAME€UP€WITH€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€TEST.Ìà àà x àIN€TERMS€OF€RESPONDING€TO€SOME€OF€THEÏCONCERNS,€WE€FELT€THAT,€ONE,€IF€A€BACT€OR€LAER€DECISIONÏHAS€BEEN€MADE€WITHIN€A€CERTAIN€TIME€PERIOD--THE€TIMEÏPERIOD€WE€PROPOSED€WAS€TEN€YEARS,€AS€PAT€INDICATED;ÏTHERE€ARE€COMMENTERS€THAT€FEEL€THAT€THIS€MAY€BE€TOOÏLONG,BUT€ESSENTIALLY€THAT€WAS€THE€PERIOD€WE€INITIALLYÏCHOSE„„€THAT€A€BACT€OR€LAER€DECISION€MADE€WITHIN€RECENTÏHISTORY€WOULD€PROBABLY€STILL€BE€CURRENT€IF€THAT€UNITÏWERE€TO€BE€PUT€THROUGH€A€BACT€OR€LAER€DECISION€PROCESSÏTODAY,€AGAIN€CONSIDERING€THE€EXISTING€CONTROLS.€€Ìà àà x àWE€WOULD€NOT€BE€LOOKING€AT€THAT€UNIT€AS€IFÏNO€CONTROLS€APPLIED€AND€THEN€MAKING€AN€ASSESSMENT.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àTHE€BACT€DECISION-MAKING€PROCESS,€AS€IT€STANDSÏTODAY,€WOULD€BE€LOOKING€AT€THE€EXISTING€SOURCE,€ITSÏEXISTING€CONTROL€CONFIGURATION,€IN€DETERMINING€THEÏCOST-EFFECTIVENESS€OF€ESSENTIALLY€RIPPING€THOSE€CONTROLSÏOUT,€PUTTING€IN€BRAND€NEW€CONTROLS;€OR€OVERLAYING€ANÏADDITIONAL€LEVEL€OF€CONTROLS.€€Ìà àà x àAND,€AGAIN,€THE€AGENCY'S€EXPERIENCE€WAS€INÏTHOSE€CASES,€ALMOST€TO€THE€CASE,€YOU€WOULD€NOT€SEE€THOSEÏEXISTING€CONTROLS€BE€TAKEN€OUT€OR€ENHANCED.€ÏESSENTIALLY,€THE€BACT€PROCESS€WOULD€DEFAULT€TO€THOSEÏCONTROLS,€AND,€THEREFORE,€WE€SHOULD€RECOGNIZE€THAT.€€Ìà àà x àSO€WHAT€WE€WERE€TRYING€TO€DO€IS,€ONE,ÏRECOGNIZE€THAT€A€RECENT€BACT€OR€LAER€DECISION€THATÏRESULTED€IN€CONTROLS€IF€IT€WAS€DONE€TODAY,REALIZING€ORÏACCEPTING€THOSE€CONTROLS€ON€THE€UNIT€TODAYWOULD€NOTÏREQUIRE€ANY€TYPE€OF€ADDITIONAL€CONTROLS.€€WHAT€WE€ALSOÏWANTED€TO€DO€WAS€ALLOW€FOR€CONTROLS€THAT€WERE€NOTÏAPPLIED€THROUGH€A€BACT€OR€LAER€PROCESS,€BUT€REALIZINGÏTHAT€IN€MANY€INSTANCES€THOSE€CONTROLS€MAY€HAVE€BEEN€ORÏMAY€ARE€„„€MAY€BE€EQUIVALENT€TO€BACT€OR€LAER.€Ìà àà x àFOR€EXAMPLE,€UNDER€TITLE€III€A€SOURCE€MAYÏNOW€BE€APPLYING€MACT.€IT'S€QUITE€POSSIBLE€THAT€THATÏMACT€STANDARD€MAY€BE€EQUIVALENT€TO€WHAT€OTHERWISE€WOULDÐ ¨+p$, ÐHAVE€BEEN€ASSESSED€UNDER€A€BACT€OR€LAER€ANALYSIS.Ìà àà x àSOURCES€WITH€RACT.€€IN€SOME€CASES€IT€MAY€BEÏPOSSIBLE€THAT€A€RACT€LIMIT€COULD€EQUAL€WHAT€OTHERWISEÏWOULD€BE€APPLIED€AS€LAER,€FOR€EXAMPLE;€OR€IF€THE€SOURCEÏWENT€BEYOND€RACT€IN€COMPLYING€WITH€RACT,€THAT€THATÏSHOULD€BE€RECOGNIZED.€€Ìà àà x àSO,€AGAIN,€THE€INTENT€HERE€WAS€TO€GIVEÏMAXIMUM€FLEXIBILITY€TO€THOSE€UNITS€WHERE€IF€WE€LOOK€ATÏWHAT€WOULD€BE€THE€RESULT€OF€A€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROCESSÏWE€WOULD€SEE€VERY€LITTLE,€IF€ANY,€VALUE€ADDED€IN€TERMSÏOF€ENVIRONMENTAL€EFFECT€OR€EMISSION€REDUCTIONS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THANK€YOU,€DAVID.€€AND€I€GUESSÐ p8 ÐYOU€WOULD€BE--MANY€OF€THE€SAME€COMMENTS€YOU€WERE€JUSTÏMAKING€IN€TERMS€OF€THE€AGENCY'S€INTENT€APPLY€TO€THEÏCLEAN€FACILITY€ANALYSIS€AS€WELL?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:€€YES.Ð  Ø Ðà àà x àMR.RAHER:€€OKAY.€€Ìà àà x àó óMR.SOLOMON:ò ò€€PROBABLY€EVEN€MORE€SO€BECAUSEÐ `#(" ÐYOU'RE€LOOKING€AT€A€FACILITY€THAT€WITHIN€THE€LAST€TENÏYEARS€YOU'VE€DONE€A€PSD€AIR€QUALITY€ANALYSIS€AT€THEÏSOURCE'S€FULL€ALLOWABLE€EMISSION€LEVEL,€AND€IT'S€BEENÏDEMONSTRATED€TO€BE€ACCEPTABLE.€€THE€WHOLE€FACILITY€HASÏBACT€OR€LAER€ON€IT.€€BASICALLY,€WHAT€THE€PROPOSAL€SAYSÐ ¨+p$, ÐIS€THAT€AS€LONG€AS€THE€SOURCE€COMPLIES€ó óWITH€THE€TERMS€OFÐ 8 ÐTHE€PERMIT,€IT€CAN€MAKE€ANY€PHYSICAL€CHANGE€OR€CHANGE€INÏTHE€METHOD€OF€OPERATION.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€OKAY.Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àBEFORE€WE€GO€TO€OUR€TRADITIONAL€CONCEPT€OFÏPUTTING€UP€YOUR€CARD€ON€END€FOR€COMMENTS€ON€THIS,€MAYBEÏIT€WOULD€BE€A€GOOD€IDEA--LYDIA€SUGGESTED€THAT€ITÏAPPEARS€THAT€THE€PLANES€HAVE€ARRIVED€AND,€IN€ADDITION,ÏSOME€OF€THE€TRAFFIC€JAM€MAYBE€IS€BREAKING€UP,€AND€MOREÏPEOPLE€ARE€SHOWING€UP.€€SO€MAYBE€WE€COULD€GO€AROUND€ANDÏINTRODUCE€OURSELVES,€AND€THAT€WAY€EVERYBODY€WILLÏREACQUAINT€THEMSELVES€WITH€MEMBERS€OF€THE€COMMITTEE.Ìà àà x àMIKE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SEWELLó ó:€€MY€NAME€IS€MIKE€SEWELL,€AND€I'MÐ Àˆ ÐWITH€THE€EPA.€€I€WORK€ON€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€ISSUES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.KATAOKAó ó:€€MARK€KATAOKA,€EPA€OFFICE€OFÐ  Ø ÐGENERAL€COUNSEL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.DRESDNERó ó:€€I'M€ROBERT€DRESDNER,€WITHÐ `#(" ÐOECA.Ìà àà x àò òMS.PATTONó ó:€€VICKIE€PATTON,€WITH€THE€EPA'SÐ °&x& ÐOFFICE€OF€GENERAL€COUNSEL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€DAVE€HAWKINS,€NATURALÐ *È"* ÐRESOURCES€DEFENSE€COUNCIL.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.BECKERó ó:€€I'M€BILL€BECKER,€WITH€STAPPAÐ 8 ÐAND€ALAPCO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAULó ó:€€I'M€JOHN€PAUL,€WITH€THEÐ ˆ P ÐREGIONAL€AIR€POLLUTION€CONTROL€AGENCY€IN€DAYTON,€OHIO,ÏAND€ALSO€REPRESENTING€STAPPA€AND€ALAPCO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€JOHN€TROUT,€LOUISVILLE,Ð €H  ÐKENTUCKY,€AND€ALAPCO'S€PERMITTING€CHAIR.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BATESó ó:€€CHRIS€BATES,€GENERAL€MOTORS.РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSSó ó:€€CHUCK€KNAUSS,€WITH€SWIDLER€ANDÐ x@  ÐBERLIN.Ìà àà x àò òMR.PEDERSENó ó:€€BILL€PEDERSEN.€€SHAW€PITTMAN.Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMR.NICKELó ó:€€HENRY€NICKEL.€€HUNTON€&Ð p8 ÐWILLIAMS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERSó ó:€€BILL€BUMPERS,€WITH€BAKER€ANDÐ Àˆ ÐBOTTS.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ODOULAMYó ó:€€JUDY€ODOULAMY,€DEPARTMENT€OFÐ  Ø ÐENERGY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BERNIE€PAULó ó:€€BERNIE€PAUL,€WITH€ELIÐ `#(" ÐLILLY€&€COMPANY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RUSCIGNOó ó:€€JOHN€RUSCIGNO,€OREGONÐ °&x& ÐDEPARTMENT€OF€ENVIRONMENTAL€QUALITY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BUNYAKó ó:€€JOHN€BUNYAK,€NATIONAL€PARKÐ *È"* ÐSERVICE.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMS.MALKINó ó:€€KAREN€MALKIN,€DEPARTMENT€OF€THEÐ 8 ÐINTERIOR,€NATIONAL€PARK€SERVICE.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAYó ó:€€ICLAL€ATAY,€NEW€JERSEY€DEPARTMENTÐ ˆ P ÐOF€ENVIRONMENTAL€PROTECTION.Ìà àà x àò òMR.AMARó ó:€€PRAVEEN€AMAR,€WITH€THE€NORTHEASTÐ Ø   ÐSTATES€FOR€COORDINATED€AIR€USE€MANAGEMENT.€€THAT'SÏNSCAUM.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BEASLEYó ó:€€BOB€BEASLEY,€VIRGINIAРИ  ÐDEPARTMENT€OF€ENVIRONMENTAL€QUALITY.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.DANIELó ó:€€I'M€JOHN€DANIEL,€VIRGINIAÐ  è ÐDEPARTMENT€OF€ENVIRONMENTAL€QUALITY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.ROSENBERGó ó:€€ERNIE€ROSENBERG,€OCCIDENTAL.Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.BANKOFFó ó:€€BARBARA€BANKOFF€FOR€SIEMENS.Ð à Ðà àà x àò òMR.BARRó ó:€€MIKE€BARR,€NATIONAL€ASSOCIATIONÐ Àˆ ÐOF€MANUFACTURERS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.FOTISó ó:€€STEVEN€FOTIS,€VAN€NESS€FELDMAN.Ð  Ø ÐFILLING€IN€FOR€MARKCARNEY,€OF€U.S.€GENERATING.Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECKó ó:€€DAN€DEROECK,€EPA-OAQPS.Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€DAVID€SOLOMON,€EPA-OAQPS.Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€IS€THERE€ANYBODY€ELSE€THATÐ °&x& ÐHASN'T--Ìà àà x àò òMS.RITTSó ó:€€LESLIE€RITTS,€WITH€NEDA.Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€I€THINK€WE€HAVEÐ ¨+p$, ÐIDENTIFIED€THE€CONCERNS€THAT€WERE€RAISED.€€THE€QUESTIONSÏWERE€RAISED€ON€CLEAN€UNITS€AND€CLEAN€FACILITIES.€€IÏTHINK€STILL€„„€WE€WOULD€ASSUME€THAT€THE€AGENCY€BELIEVESÏTHAT€THIS€IS€NOT€CREATING€A€SIGNIFICANT€BURDEN€ON€THEÏSTATES.€€THAT€WAS€THE€ONLY€ISSUE€THAT€WAS€LEFTÏUNADDRESSED,€AND€I€THINK,€JOHN€PAUL,€YOU€MAY€WANT€TO€TRYÏTO€ADDRESS€THAT€SO€THAT€THE€COMMITTEE€AND€THE€AGENCY€CANÏBETTER€UNDERSTAND€WHY€THIS€IS€A€GREATER€BURDEN€THAN€THEÏCURRENT€PROGRAM.Ì€à àà x àBUT€ARE€THERE€ANY€COMMENTS€BY€MEMBERS€OF€THEÐ  è ÐCOMMITTEE€WITH€RESPECT€TO€EITHER€THE€CONCERNS€OF€THEÏAGENCY'S€LANGUAGE€IN€ATTEMPTING€TO€PRESENT€A€METHOD€FORÏMAKING€AN€APPLICABILITY€EXCLUSION€WORKABLE€OR€THE€WAYÏTHAT€THE€PACKAGE€LANGUAGE€THAT'S€IN€THE€PACKAGE€WITHÏRESPECT€TO€THESE€TWO€ISSUES?Ì€€à àà x àDAVID?Ð  Ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€I€HAVE€A€COUPLE€OF€QUESTIONSÐ ¸!€  ÐABOUT€THE€PROCEDURES€THAT€THE€AGENCY€ENVISAGES€FOR€THEÏEVALUATION€OF€THIS€CLEAN€UNIT€APPROACH,€AND€I'LL€JUSTÏSTATE€THEM,€AND€THEN€MAYBE€WE€CAN€DISCUSS€THEM.€€ONE€ISÏSOME€CLARIFICATION€ON€WHO€IT€IS€THAT€WOULD€EVALUATEÏWHETHER€THE€UNIT€WAS€OR€WAS€NOT€A€CLEAN€UNIT.€€Ìà àà x àWOULD€THIS€BE€DONE€BY€THE€POTENTIALÐ ¨+p$, ÐAPPLICANT?€€WOULD€IT€BE€REVIEWED€BY€ANYONE?€€WOULD€IT€BEÏIN€THE€FORM€OF€A€SUBMISSION€FROM€THE€APPLICANT€WITH€SOMEÏSORT€OF€DOCUMENTATION€TO€A€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€THAT€THEÏUNIT€WAS€ELIGIBLE€UNDER€ONE€OF€THESE€TESTSEVIN?€€ANDÏTHEN€WOULD€THERE€BE€A€RECORD€THAT€WOULD€REFLECT€AÏPERMITTING€AUTHORITY'S€REVIEW€AND€CONCLUSIONS€WITHÏRESPECT€TO€THAT?€€WOULD€THERE€BE€ANY€NOTICE€OR€COMMENTÏFOR€THE€PUBLIC€TO€BE€ABLE€TO€PARTICIPATE€IN€THAT€OR€ANYÏKIND€OF€AN€EVEN€FILE€THAT€WOULD€ALLOW€THE€PUBLIC€LATERÏON€TO€FIND€OUT€THAT€THESE€DETERMINATIONS€HAD€BEEN€MADE?Ìà àà x àAND€I€GUESS€NOT€JUST€THE€PUBLIC,€BUT€THEREÏHAS€BEEN€ENFORCEMENT€ACTION€IN€THE€PAST€TAKEN€AGAINSTÏSOURCES€THAT€HAVE€BEEN€ALLEGED€TO€CONSTRUCT€WITHOUT€AÏPERMIT,€AND€WHAT€WOULD€BE€THE€RECORD€THAT€ANY€INTERESTEDÏENTITIES€WOULD€BE€ABLE€TO€LOOK€AT?€€IF€AN€ISSUE€AROSEÏTHAT€A€SOURCE€HAD€CONSTRUCTED€WITHOUT€A€REQUIRED€PERMIT,ÏAND€THE€SOURCE€CLAIMED€ELIGIBILITY€UNDER€THIS€TEST,€WHATÏWOULD€BE€THE€PROCEDURE€FOR€SORTING€OUT€THAT€DISPUTE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€SO,€DAVID,€WHAT€YOU'RE€LOOKINGÐ %Ð$ ÐFOR€IS€BOTH€THE€PROCEDURES€AND€WHO€WOULD€BE€MAKINGÏDETERMINATIONS€FOR€QUALIFICATIONS€OF€THIS€AND€IF€THEREÏIS€A€DIFFERENCE€BETWEEN€THE€CURRENT€PROGRAMWHEREÏSOMEBODY€CERTAINLY€COULD€CONSTRUCT,AND€THEN€THERE€WOULDÐ ¨+p$, ÐHAVE€TO€BE€SOME€KIND€OF€REVIEW€AND€ENFORCEMENT,€ANDÏUNDER€THE€NEW€PROGRAM€IF€YOU€COULD€SAY,€OH,€BY€THE€WAY,ÏTHIS€WOULD€HAVE€BEEN€COVERED€IF€I€HAD€DONE€A€CLEAN€UNITÏEXCLUSION,€ASSUMING€THAT€IT€DOESN'T€HAVE€TO€BEÏPREAPPROVED?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH.€€AS€I€UNDERSTAND€ITÐ €H  ÐUNDER€THE€CURRENT€PROGRAM,€THE€NETTING€TRANSACTIONSÏAREN'T€NECESSARILY€REVIEWED.€ALTHOUGH,€TYPICALLY,€THEYÏMAY€BE,€BUT€THEY€AREN'T€NECESSARILY€REVIEWED.€BUT€IFÏTHERE€WERE€A€SUBSEQUENT€„„€SUBSEQUENT€INQUIRY€INTO€THEÏCORRECTNESS€OF€A€SOURCE'S€DETERMINATION,€„„Ìà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.€HAWKINS:ó 󀀄„€IT€WOULD€BE€ESSENTIALLY€AÐ à ÐMATTER€OF€MATHEMATICS€FOR€LOOKING€AT€WHAT€WENT€UP,€WHATÏWENT€DOWN,€AND€WHEN€IT€WENT€UP€AND€WHEN€IT€WENT€DOWN€ANDÏWHETHER€THAT€FIT€WITHIN€THE€WINDOW€THAT€WAS€ALLOWED.€€Ìà àà x àHERE,€I€THINK,€THERE€ARE€JUDGMENTS€THAT€AREÏBEING€CALLED€FOR€IN€THE€SENSE€OF€COMPARING€THE€„„€EITHERÏTHE€PROGRAM€OR€THE€DETERMINATION,OR€IS€THIS€JUST€ANÏABSOLUTE€TEST€THAT€IF€THERE€WAS€SOMETHING€THAT€WASÏCALLED€A€BACT€DETERMINATION,€THAT'S€THE€END€OF€THEÏINQUIRY?€€AND€THOSE€ARE€SORT€OF€THE€CLARIFYING€QUESTIONSÏI'M€SEEKING€ANSWERS€TO.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€ESSENTIALLY,€WE€PROPOSED€THREEÐ 8 ÐWAYS€BY€WHICH€A€SOURCE€WOULD€ACHIEVE€THE€CLEAN€UNITÏLABEL.€€THE€FIRST€METHOD€IS€THROUGH€ACTUALLY€GOINGÏTHROUGH€A€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€DETERMINATION;€THAT€IS,ÏHAVING€BEEN€ISSUED€A€PERMIT€UNDER€THE€PSD€OR€THEÏNONATTAINMENT€MAJOR€NEW€SOURCE€PROVISIONS.Ìà àà x àTHE€SECOND€TEST€IS€WHERE€A€STATE€HAS€A€MINORÏNEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROGRAM€THAT€EPA€HAS€CERTIFIED€ASÏRESULTING€IN€BACT„€OR€LAER„EQUIVALENT€DETERMINATIONS,ÏTHERE€ARE€CERTAIN€STATES€THAT€WILL€SUBJECT€ANY€EMISSIONSÏINCREASE,€NOTWITHSTANDING€THE€FACT€THAT€THEY€ARE€NOTÏGOING€THROUGH€MAJOR€NSR€TO€BACT.€€AND€IN€MANY€CASES€THATÏBACT€IS€EQUIVALENT€TO€WHAT€OTHERWISE€WOULD€COME€OUT€OF€AÏMAJOR€NSR,€AND€WE€WANTED€TO€RECOGNIZE€THAT,€AND€EPAÏWOULD€HAVE€TO€CERTIFY€THAT€AS€COMING€OUT€OF€THE€STATEÏPROGRAM.Ìà àà x àAND€THE€THIRD€IS€WHERE€THE€STATE€THROUGH€ITSÏTITLE€V€PROCESS,€WHEN€THE€TITLE€V€PERMIT€IS€UP€FORÏRENEWAL,€WOULD€AT€THE€REQUEST€OF€THE€APPLICANT--THEÏAPPLICANT€WOULD€COME€IN€AND€STATE€THAT€UNITS€A,€B,€AND€CÏTHEY€BELIEVE€TO€HAVE€BACT-EQUIVALENT€LEVELS€OF€CONTROL.€ÏTHE€STATE€WOULD€REVIEW€THAT.€€IF€THE€STATE€FELT€THAT,ÏYES,€INDEED,€THAT€TECHNOLOGY€THAT€WAS€JUST€APPLIED€ASÐ ¨+p$, ÐMACT€WOULD€HAVE€MET€BACT,€WOULD€THEN€PROPOSE€TO€THEÏPUBLIC,€WHEN€THAT€TITLE€V€PERMIT€IS€OPENED,€THAT€THESEÏUNITS€AS€LISTED€WOULD€RECEIVE€A€LABEL€AS€CLEAN€UNIT€AND,ÏTHEREFORE,€ELIGIBLE€FOR€A€CLEAN€UNIT€TEST€FOR€THE€NEXTÏFIVE€YEARS.€€THAT€IS€THE€DURATION€OF€THAT€TITLE€VÏPERMIT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€DAVID,€COULD€I--JUST€A€Ð (ð  ÐCLARIFICATION€HERE.€€YOU€SAID€IN€THE€TITLE€V€PROCESS€YOUÏACTUALLY€WOULD€"LABEL"€A€UNIT€A€CLEAN€UNIT.€€LET'SÏASSUME€UNDER€A€BACT€OR€LAER€DETERMINATION€THAT€HAS€BEENÏMADE€IN€THE€LAST€TEN€YEARS.€€Ìà àà x àDO€YOU€ENVISION€SOME€TYPE€OF€ACTIVITY€BYÏEITHER€THE€STATE€REGULATORY€AGENCY€OR€THE€PERMIT-HOLDERÏOF€LABELING€THAT€PIECE€OF€EQUIPMENT€AS€A€CLEAN€UNIT,€ORÏIS€IT€JUST€THE€EXISTENCE€THAT€WE€DID,€IN€FACT,€AND€CANÏPROVE€THAT€THIS€UNIT€WENT€THROUGH€A€BACT€OR€LAERÏDETERMINATION€IN€THE€LAST€TEN€YEARS?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€I€WOULD€PROBABLY€SAY€THAT€THEÐ `#(" ÐLATTER.€€I€DON'T€NECESSARILY€NEED€„„€SEE€THE€NEED€FORÏANY€ADDITIONAL€ADMINISTRATIVE€PROCESS.€€IF€THE€STATE€ANDÏSOURCE€IS€DOCUMENTED€THAT€A€PSD€PERMIT€WAS€RECEIVED,€ITÏWOULD€BE€TEN€YEARS€FROM€THE€DATE€OF€ISSUANCE€OF€THATÏPERMIT.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€DAVID,€DO€YOU€WANT€TOÐ 8 ÐJUST,€WELL,€JUST€CLARIFY€IT?€€WE'VE€GOT€ANOTHERÏQUESTION,€BUT€IF€WE€CAN€STATE€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€WHY€DON'T€I€WAIT?Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:€€OKAY.Ð Ø   Ðà àà x àó óMR.SOLOMON:ò ò€€I€JUST€WANT€TO€CLARIFY€ANOTHERÐ €H  ÐPOINT,€TOO,€IN€TERMS€OF€WHAT€WE'RE€TRYING€TO€ACHIEVEÏWITH€THE€CLEAN€UNIT.€€MANY€OR€PROBABLY€THE€BULK€OF€THEÏISSUES€THAT€ARISE€IN€APPLICABILITY€DEAL€WITHÏMODIFICATIONS€TO€EXISTING€UNITS.ó ó€€WHAT€IS€A€PHYSICALÐ  è ÐCHANGE€OR€CHANGE€IN€THE€METHOD€OF€OPERATION?€€WHAT€ISÏROUTINE?€€WHAT€IS€NOT€ROUTINE?€€Ìà àà x àAND€THE€PURPOSE€OF€THIS€PROVISION€WAS€TO,€ATÏLEAST€WITHIN€THE€SCOPE€OF€CHANGES€TO€EXISTING€UNITS,ÏPROVIDE€A€MUCH€MORE€SIMPLIFIED€AND€STRAIGHTFORWARD€TESTÏFOR€THOSE€UNITS€THAT€HAVE€STATE-OF-THE-ART€TECHNOLOGYÏFOR€WHICH€A€PSD€REVIEW€WOULD€REALLY€NOT€RESULT€IN€ANYÏADDITIONAL€EMISSION€REDUCTIONS,€BUT€PROVIDE€A€LONG€ANDÏLENGTHY€PERMITTING€PROCESS€FOR€THE€APPLICANT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAYó ó:€€I€UNDERSTAND€THAT--Ð X( !( Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€COULD€EACH€PERSON€PLEASEÐ *È"* ÐIDENTIFY€THEMSELVES€FOR€THE€RECORD?€€IT€WILL€MAKE€IT€AÐ ¨+p$, ÐLITTLE€EASIER€ON€THE€TRANSCRIPT€„„€IN€THE€TRANSCRIPT.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€I'M€ICLAL€ATAY,€FROM€NEW€JERSEYРਠÐDEPARTMENT€OF€ENVIRONMENTAL€PROTECTION.€€Ìà àà x àI€UNDERSTAND€THE€FACT€THAT€IF€SOMEBODY€HASÏUNDERGONE€A€BEST€AVAILABLE€CONTROL€TECHNOLOGY€REVIEW€ANDÏHAVE€ALREADY€INSTALLED€BEST€AVAILABLE€CONTROLÏTECHNOLOGY,€AND€THE€FACT€THAT€SUBJECTING€THAT€FACILITYÏTO€REVIEW€AGAIN€WOULD€NOT€CHANGE€THE€TECHNOLOGY€THATÏWOULD€HAVE€REQUIRED,€THEREFORE€WOULD€NOT€HAVE€ANY€IMPACTÏON€THE€RESULTING€EMISSIONS,€WOULD€BE€RIGHT.€€Ìà àà x àBUT€ONE€OF€THE€VERY€IMPORTANT€REVIEWS€IN€THEÏPSD€PROCESS€IS€THE€FACT€THAT€AIR€QUALITY€IMPACTS€ONÏINCREMENT€ANALYSIS.€€I€MEAN,€IF€YOU€HAD€DONE€THE€REVIEWÏYOU€MAY€NOT€EVEN€PERMIT,€EVEN€WITH€WHATEVER€TECHNOLOGY,ÏTHE€EMISSION€INCREASE€BECAUSE€THERE€IS€NO€INCREMENTÏAVAILABLE€IN€THE€AREA;€OR€THERE€MAY€BE€SIGNIFICANTÏEMISSION€INCREASES,€AND€OFFSETS€MAY€BE€REQUIRED.€€ANDÏTHERE€MAY€BE€OTHER€ILLUSTTATIONS.€€Ìà àà x àCOMPLETE€EXEMPTION€FROM€PERMIT€REVIEW€BASEDÏSIMPLY€ON€TECHNOLOGY€CONSIDERATIONS€MAY€NOT€BEÏAPPROPRIATE.€€DO€YOU€HAVE€ANY€COMMENT€ON€THAT?€Ìà àà x àMR.RAHERò ò:€€IS€THERE€ANYBODY€IN€THE€AGENCYÐ *È"* ÐWHO€HAS€THOUGHT€ABOUT€THAT€ISSUE,€OR€YOU€CAN€THINK€ABOUTÐ ¨+p$, ÐIT?Ìà àà x àó óMR.SOLOMON:ò ò€€IT€IS€A€FAIR€QUESTION€TO€THEРਠÐEXTENT€THAT€IF€A€SOURCE€WAS€PERMITTEDó ó€EIGHT€OR€NINEÐ ˆ P ÐYEARS€AGO,€AND€SUBSEQUENT€TO€THAT€THERE€HAS€BEENÏADDITIONAL€GROWTH€WITHIN€THE€AREA,€BE€IT€MAJOR€OR€MINOR,ÏTHAT€IF€THE€SOURCE€WOULD€UNDERGO€THE€SAME€REVIEW€TODAY,ÏTHE€DIFFERENCE€BETWEEN€THEIR€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€AND€WHATÏTHE€POTENTIAL€OR€ALLOWABLE€WOULD€BE€COULD€DEMONSTRATE€ANÏINCREMENT€VIOLATION.€€BUT€THAT€IS€ALSO€APPLICABLE€TO€AÏLOT€OF€SOURCES€OUT€THERE,€EVEN€MINOR€SOURCES.€Ìà àà x àUNFORTUNATELY,€MOST€OF€THE€STATES€DO€NOTÏTRACK€INCREMENT€AT€MINOR€SOURCES€UNTIL€SUCH€TIME€AS€AÏPERMIT€EXISTS,€AND€I€WOULD€THROW€IT€BACK€OUT€TO€THEÏSTATES€TO€ASK€IF€THIS€IS€THE€TOOL€THAT€THEY€WANT€INÏTERMS€OF€TRACKING€INCREMENT.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€IN€THE€CASE€OF€NEW€JERSEY,€IÐ  Ø ÐWOULD€SAY€"YES."Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€THANK€YOU.€Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€JUST€TO€RESPOND€TO€NEWÐ %Ð$ ÐJERSEY'S€CONCERN,€I€MEAN€ONE€THING€WE€DO€IN€THIS€PACKAGEÏIS€WE€PUT€A€SORT€OF€A€LAUNDRY€LIST€OF€APPLICABILITYÏAPPROACHES€FROM€WHICH€THE€STATE€CAN€PICK€AND€CHOOSE.€€IFÏIN€NEW€JERSEY€THEIR€CONCERN€IS€THAT€THIS€TYPE€OF€TESTÐ ¨+p$, ÐWOULD€ALLOW€FOR€POTENTIAL€INCREMENT€VIOLATIONS,€THEN€ITÏWOULD€BE€UP€TO€NEW€JERSEY€TO€DECIDE€IF€THEY€WANTED€TOÏUSE€THIS€TEST€FOR€THEIR€UNITS€OR€DEFAULT€TO€A€DIFFERENTÏTEST€THAT€WOULD€ALLOW€YOU€TO€KEEP€A€BETTER€TRACK€OFÏINCREMENTS.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€THAT'S€ALL€RIGHT,€BUT€IF€INEQUITYÐ €H  ÐBETWEEN€STATES€IS€NOT€GOOD,€STATES€SHOULD€BE€SUBJECT€TOÏSIMILAR€STANDARDS.€€IF€NEW€JERSEY€EMPLOYS€SOMETHING€LIKEÏTHIS,€AND€OTHER€STATES€DO€NOT,€WE€ARE€SUBJECT€TOÏEMISSIONS€FROM€THEIR€STATES€BECAUSE€AIR€POLLUTIONS€DOÏNOT€KNOW€BORDERS€IN€THE€FIRST€PLACE.€€AND,€ALSO,€ITÏCREATES€AN€ECONOMIC€IMBALANCE€BECAUSE€NEW€JERSEY€IS€AÏMORE€STRICTER€STATE€THAN€OTHER€STATES.€€WE€DO€NOTÏPROVIDE€AN€EXEMPTION,€WHERE€OTHER€STATES€DO€PROVIDE€IT.Ìà àà x àMR.RAHERò ò:€€JOHN€PAUL?Ð h0 Ðà àà x àó óMR.JOHN€PAUL:€€JUST€A€COUPLE€OF€THINGS.€Ð  Ø ÐONE€IS€THAT--I€MEAN€I'M€GOING€TO€TAKE€A€LOT€OF€NOTES,ÏAND€WE'LL€TRY€TO€GIVE€YOU€DETAILS€IN€OUR€WRITTENÏCOMMENT.€€BUT€JUST€TO€GIVE€YOU€SOME€DIRECT€FEEDBACK,ÏWHICH€IS€A€LITTLE€BIT€MORE€DETAILED€THAN€WHAT€WE€SAIDÏYESTERDAY,€FIRST€OF€ALL,€WITH€REGARD€TO€PAST€BACT/LAERÏDETERMINATIONS,€I€KNOW€THAT€WE'VE€NEVER€CONSIDERED€INÏDOING€A€BACT€OR€LAER€DETERMINATION€WILL€THIS€REPRESENTÐ ¨+p$, ÐBACT€OR€LAER€TEN€YEARS€DOWN€THE€ROAD.€€Ìà àà x àSO€THERE€ARE€GOING€TO€BE€BACT€OR€LAERÏDETERMINATIONS€WHICH€WERE€NOT€THE€TOP,€BUT€THEYÏWERE--YOU€KNOW,€MAYBE€THE€AGENCY€YIELDED€TO€SOME€OFÏTHE€OTHER€ARGUMENTS€AS€TO€WHAT€WAS€BACT.€€SO,€I€MEAN,ÏCLEARLY€THERE'S€GOING€TO€BE€THOSE€THAT€ARE€IN€THERE.Ð €H  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€JOHN€PAUL,€JUST€TO€HELP€TO€FOCUSÐ (ð  ÐON€THE€ISSUE,€DO€YOU€THINK€THAT€THAT€KIND€OFÏDETERMINATION€IF€REDONE€SIX€OR€SEVEN€YEARS€LATER,€ASÏDAVID€WAS€SAYING€IN€HIS€INTRODUCTORY€COMMENT,ÏRECOGNIZING€THE€CONTROLS€ARE€NOW€ON,€AND€NOW€YOU'REÏDOING€THE€COST€ANALYSIS€AND€SO€FORTH€„„€DO€YOU€THINKÏTHAT€THERE€ARE€SIGNIFICANT€ONES€THAT€WOULD€REQUIRE€THEÏADDITION€OF€NEW€CONTROLS?Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAULó ó:€€SURE.€€I€MEAN€IT€„„€WE€WOULDÐ h0 ÐAT€LEAST€HAVE€TO€EXAMINE€THAT€AND€„„€TO€BE€ABLE€TOÏJUSTIFY€TO€THE€PUBLIC€THAT,€INDEED,€WHAT€IS€ON€THERE,ÏTHAT€THEY€PUT€ON€PRIOR€TO,€IS€BACT€OR€LAER,€OR€DOES€ITÏNEED€TO€BE€INCREASED?€€SO€I€WOULD€SAY--Ìà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€NO,€I€GUESS--I€THINK€WHATÐ °&x& ÐDAVID€WAS€SAYING€IS€NOT€THAT€YOU€WOULDN'T--NOT€UNDERÏTODAY'S€PROGRAM€THAT€YOU€WOULDN'T€DO€THAT,€WE€KNOW€YOUÏWOULD€DO€IT.€€THE€QUESTION€IS€WHEN€YOU€DO€THAT€UNDERÐ ¨+p$, ÐTODAY'S€PROGRAM,€HOW€MANY€TIMES€DO€YOU€ACTUALLY€FINDÏTHAT€YOU'RE€CAUSING€SOURCES€TO€HAVE€TO€UPGRADE€ANÏEXISTING€SOURCE€THAT'S€ALREADY€GONE€THROUGH€BACT€ORÏLAER?Ìà àà x àIF€YOUR€PEOPLE€COULD--IF€MEMBERS€OF€THEÏASSOCIATION€COULD€GIVE€SOME€THOUGHT€TO€THAT,€I€THINK€ITÏWOULD€BE€HELPFUL€BECAUSE€I€THINK€WE€HEARD€OR€THE€AGENCYÏREALLY€SAY€THAT,€YOU€KNOW,€IF€YOU€CONSIDER€THE€COST€OFÏTHE€EQUIPMENT€AND€THE€CONTROLS€THAT€ARE€ON€THERE€NOW€SIXÏOR€SEVEN€OR€SO€YEARS€LATER,€THEY,€THEY€AT€LEAST,€FELTÏTHAT€IT€WAS€REASONABLE€THAT€THERE€WOULDN'T€BE€A€CONSTANTÏINCREASE€IN€THAT€EQUIPMENT.€€SO€IF€YOUR€MEMBERS€COULDÏTHINK€ABOUT€THAT€AND€LOOK€AT€THAT€IN€THE€COMMENT,€ITÏWOULD€PROBABLY€BE€VERY€HELPFUL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAULó ó:€€SURE,€WE€WOULD.€€AND€I€THINKÐ h0 ÐTHAT€A€COMMENT€THAT€WAS€MADE€BY€DAVID€HAWKINS€YESTERDAYÏIS€„„€WAS€A€GOOD€ONE€IN€THAT€THE€NSPS,€THAT€THEY'REÏSUPPOSED€TO€BE€LOOKED€AT€AND€REVIEWED€ON€A€PERIODICÏBASIS.€€SO€I€THINK€THERE'S€A€RECOGNITION€BY€CONGRESSÏTHAT€TECHNOLOGIES€CHANGE€AND€THAT€WE€NEED€TO€KEEPÏUPDATED€ON€THAT.€€BUT€I€DIDN'T€WANT€TO€GET--I'LL€SAVEÏTHE€DETAIL€FOR€LATER.Ìà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.€JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€THE€OTHER€POINT,€THEÐ 8 ÐBACT/LAER€EQUIVALENTS€UNDER€STATE€PROGRAMS€„„€I€MEAN,€IÏTHINK€STATE€PROGRAMS€ARE€GOING€THE€OPPOSITE€DIRECTION,ÏMOST€OF€THEM€THAT€WE€SEE,€IN€THAT€THERE'S€A€LOT€OFÏPRESSURE€FROM€OUR€LEGISLATURES€TO€NOT€BE€MORE€STRINGENTÏTHAN€THE€FEDERAL€PROGRAM.€€Ìà àà x àAND€ONE€OF€THE€THINGS€THAT€IS€A€REAL€CONCERNÏWITH€STATES€AND€LOCALS€RIGHT€NOW€IS€THAT€WE--ON€THEÏNATIONAL€SCALE€WE€HEAR€A€LOT€OF€PUSH€FOR€STATE€AND€LOCALÏFLEXIBILITY:€€THAT€ON€THE€STATE€AND€LOCAL€LEVEL,€WE€GETÏTHIS€PUSH€FOR€DON'T€BE€MORE€STRINGENT€THAN€THE€FEDERALÏPROGRAM.€€AND€WE'RE€WONDERING€WHERE€THIS€IS€ALL€GOING€TOÏFALL€OUT.€€Ìà àà x àIF€YOU€„„€IF€YOU€REALLY€DO€AWAY€WITH€A€LOTÏOF€THE€NATIONAL€STRINGENCIES,€AND€THEN€YOU€GET€LEFT€WITHÏA€STATE€AND€LOCAL€PROGRAM€THAT€SAYS€YOU€CAN'T€BE€MOREÏSTRINGENT€THAN€THE€NATIONAL€PROGRAM,€THEN€WE'RE€REALLYÏIN€A€BIND€AS€FAR€AS€GETTING€GOOD€TECHNOLOGY€AND€REALLYÏCONTROLLING€AIR€POLLUTION.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMONó ó:€€LET€ME€JUST€ASK€A€QUESTION.€Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAULó ó:€€YES.Ð X( !( Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMONó ó:€€IS€IT€THE€CONCEPT€ITSELFÐ *È"* ÐTHAT'S€CONCERNED€OR€IMPLEMENTING€IT?€€FOR€EXAMPLE,€IF€ITÐ ¨+p$, ÐWAS€A€FIVE-YEAR€LOOK-BACK€OR€IF€IT€ONLY€WHERE€BACT€ORÏLAER€RESULTED€IN€CONTROLS--I€MEAN€IT€COULD€BE€POSSIBLEÏTHAT€EIGHT€YEARS€AGO€THE€DECISION€WAS€NO€CONTROLS€WEREÏBACT,€SO€YOU€HAVE€AN€UNCONTROLLED€UNIT.€€IT€WASÏSATISFACTORY€AT€THAT€POINT€IN€TIME,€AND€NOW€THERE€IS€AÏTECHNOLOGY€THAT€CAN€CONTROL€THAT€POLLUTANT€AND€ITS€COSTSÏARE€REASONABLE.€€Ìà àà x àSO€MY€QUESTION€IS,€IS€IT€THE€BASIC€TESTSÏTHAT,€REALLY,€YOU€FIND€IT€JUST€TO€BE€UNWORKABLE,€OR€ISÏIT€THAT€IT€JUST€NEEDS€FURTHER€REFINEMENT€TO€ENSURE€THATÏIT€IS€ONLY€APPLIED€WHERE€THE€PSD€PROCESS€WOULD€TRULYÏPROVIDE€NO€VALUE€ADDED€TO€THE€ENVIRONMENT€AND€TO€THEÏSTATE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€WELL,€WHENEVER€WE€LOOK€ATÐ Àˆ ÐQUESTIONS€LIKE€THAT,€WE€GO€BACK€TO€OUR€BASIC€PRINCIPLES,ÏAND€OUR€BASIC€PRINCIPLES€ARE€THE€BEST€TIME€TO€PUT€ONÏCONTROLS€IS€WHEN€A€NEW€SOURCE€IS€BUILT€OR€A€SOURCE€ISÏMODIFIED,€AND€WE€HAVE€TO€MAKE€SURE€THAT€ANY€RESULTANTÏAIR€QUALITY€IMPACT€IS€ANALYZED€AND€DEALT€WITH.€€Ìà àà x àSO€I€GUESS€WHAT€SCARES€US€IS€THIS--YOUÏKNOW,€SOME€KIND€OF€A€PRESUMPTION€THAT€WHAT€A€SOURCE€HASÏGOT€ON€THERE€IS€BACT€„„€OBVIOUSLY,€THE€LONGER€BACK€YOUÏGO€THE€LESS€SURE€WE€ARE€OF€THAT€„„€AND€THEN€THIS€SECONDÐ ¨+p$, ÐASSUMPTION€THAT€THEY€ARE€SOMEHOW€EXEMPTED€FROM€THEÏPROCESS.€€Ìà àà x àIF€WE€WERE€LOOKING€AT€A€MODIFICATION,€AND€WEÏWERE€RECONFIRMING€THAT€IT'S€BACT€OR€LAER,€AND€THAT€WASÏSOME€KIND€OF€A€STREAMLINE€PROCESS,€THAT,€I€THINK,€WEÏCOULD€LIVE€WITH.€€BUT€WE€NEED€SOME€KIND€OF€AN€UPDATEDÏLOOK€AT€THE€TECHNOLOGY€AND€THE€IMPACT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMONó ó:€€AGAIN,€„„РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€GO€AHEAD.Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMS.€WEGMAN:ó ó€€GO€AHEAD,€DAVID.Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.€SOLOMON:ó ó€€THE€EXEMPTION€ONLY€APPLIES€IFÐ È ÐITS€ACTUAL€OR€ITS€POTENTIAL€HOURLY€EMISSIONS€DO€NOTÏINCREASE,€SO€IT'S€NOT€JUST€THIS€UNIT€IS€EXEMPTÏREGARDLESS€OF€ITS€POTENTIAL€IN€TERMS€OF€WORST€CASEÏEMISSIONS.€€SO€IF€IN€THIS€CASE€THE€NSPS€WOULD€APPLYÏBECAUSE€ITS€HOURLY€EMISSIONS€INCREASE,€THEN€THAT'S€ANÏAPPROPRIATE€TIME€TO€OPEN€IT€UP€FOR€PSD€AND€TECHNOLOGYÏREVIEWS.€€Ìà àà x àSO€I€THINK€IT'S€IMPORTANT€TO€UNDERSTAND€THEÏTERMS€OF€THE€EXCLUSION;€AND€THAT€IS,€IT'S€AN€NSPS-TYPEÏOF€TEST.€€WHAT€IS€ITS€MAXIMUM€HOURLY€EMISSIONS?€€AREÏTHEY€INCREASING?€€YES,€THE€TEST€WOULD€NOT€APPLY.€€DOÏTHEY€REMAIN€THE€SAME€OR€DECREASE?€€YES.€€THEN€YOU€WOULDÐ ¨+p$, ÐBE€ELIGIBLE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAULó ó:€€OKAY,€AND€THEN€THAT--SEE,РਠÐTHEN€THAT€GETS€US€CONFUSED€BECAUSE€THEN€I'M€STARTING€TOÏWONDER€WHAT€IS€IT€THAT€THEY'RE€BEING€EXEMPTED€FROM€IFÏTHEY'RE€MEETING€ALL€OF€THESE€TESTS,€AND€WE€HAVE€TOÏCONFIRM€THAT€THEY'RE€MEETING€THESE€TESTS.€€Ìà àà x àAND€THEN€I'M€FURTHER€CONCERNED€WITH€WHAT€AREÏALL€THE€SPECIAL€TERMS€AND€CONDITIONS,€TO€MAKE€SURE€THATÏTHIS€IS€ENFORCEABLE,€THAT€WE€HAVE€TO€PUT€ON€THIS.€€Ìà àà x àAND,€EVENTUALLY,€WE'RE€CONCERNED€THAT€THEÏPROCESS€TO€EXEMPT€A€SOURCE€BECOMES€MORE€COMPLICATED€THANÏTHE€PROCESS€TO€REVIEW€IT.€€IF,€INDEED,€WHAT€THEY'VE€GOTÏON€THERE€IS€BACT€OR€LAER,€IF,€INDEED,€THEY€HAVE€NO€AIRÏQUALITY€IMPACT€„„€THEN€WE€SHOULD€HAVE€A€PROCESS€WHICH€ISÏSTREAMLINED€WHICH€GETS€THEM€THROUGH€THE€PROCESS€REALÏQUICKLY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID?Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH.€€WELL,€LET€ME€JUSTÐ `#(" ÐFOLLOW€UP€WITH€THAT€LAST€COMMENT€OF€JOHN'S.€€I€THINK€ONEÏOF€THE€THINGS€THAT€HASN'T€BEEN€EXAMINED€IS€WHETHER€THISÏEXEMPTION€IS€NEEDED€GIVEN€IF€SOME€OF€THE€OTHER€CHANGESÏTO€NSR€WERE€ADOPTED.€€Ìà àà x àIF€THE€LIBERALIZATION€OF€THE€NETTINGÐ ¨+p$, ÐCALCULUS€WAS€ADOPTED,€IF€THERE€WERE€SOME€FORM€OFÏACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUALS€THAT€WAS€ADOPTED--IN€OUR€VIEWÏIT€WOULD€HAVE€TO€BE€ENFORCEABLE€FUTURE€ACTUALS€„„€ISÏTHERE€STILL€A€BASIS€FOR€CLAIMING€THAT€THIS€ADDITIONALÏTEST€IS€AN€EXEMPTION,€WITH€THE€ACCOMPANYINGÏCOMPLICATIONS,€IS€NEEDED?€€WHAT€ARE€THE--WHAT€ARE€THEÏ„„€ARE€THERE€REALLY€HARDSHIPS€AND€INAPPROPRIATENESSÏFROM,€IN€EFFECT,€FORCING€THE€FACILITY€TO€UNDERGO€AÏNETTING€CALCULATION€IN€THAT€CONTEXT,€AND€THAT€„„€SOÏTHAT'S€THE€FIRST€POINT.Ìà àà x àAND€THE€SECOND€ONE€IS€CLOSELY€RELATED;€WHICHÏIS,€I€THINK€WE€DO€HAVE€TO€BE€CLEAR€ABOUT€WHAT€IT€IS€THATÏWE'RE€LOSING€BY€THIS€EXEMPTION,€EVEN€IF€IT€WEREÏIMPLEMENTED,€YOU€KNOW,€IN€A€PERFECT€MANNER€THATÏPRECISELY€TRACKED€THE€REGULATORY€LANGUAGE.Ìà àà x àFIRST,€AS€MS.€ATAY€INDICATED,€WE'RE€LOSINGÏTHE€CHECK€AGAINST€AIR€QUALITY€TEST.€€AND€I€DON'T€THINKÏIT'S€AN€ADEQUATE€ANSWER€TO€SAY€THAT€THERE€ARE€LOTS€OFÏOTHER€FACILITIES€THAT€WE€LET€TAKE€PLACE€WITHOUT€AIRÏQUALITY€TESTS€BEING€CONDUCTED€BECAUSE€HERE€WE'RE--IÏMEAN€THAT€WOULD€BE€AN€ARGUMENT€FOR€ELIMINATION€OF€THEÏENTIRE€NSR€PROGRAM€THAT--WHICH€I'M€SURE€PEOPLE€AREÏREADY€TO€APPLAUD.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àBUT€THE,€YOU€KNOW,€THE€FACT€THAT€„„€THE€FACTÏTHAT€THERE€WAS€A€DECISION€MADE€TO€HAVE€A€THRESHOLD€ABOVEÏWHICH€WE€WOULD€CONDUCT€THESE€REVIEWS€OBVIOUSLY€MEANSÏTHAT€BELOW€THAT€THRESHOLD€THE€REVIEWS€AREN'T€CONDUCTED.€ÏTHAT€FACT€ALONE€CAN'T€BE€USED€AS€AN€ARGUMENT€THAT,ÏTHEREFORE,€THERE€SHOULDN'T€BE€ANY€REVIEWS€CONDUCTEDÏABOVE€THE€THRESHOLD€EITHER.€€IT'S€KIND€OF€A€BOOTSTRAPÏARGUMENT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€BY€DEFINITION€WE'RE€DEALING--IFÏSOMEONE€IS€APPLYING€FOR€THIS€EXEMPTION,€IT'S€BECAUSEÏTHEY€AREN'T€COMMITTING€TO€NET€OUT€OF€REVIEWS.€€SO€THEREÏIS€GOING€TO€BE€A€SIGNIFICANT€INCREASE€IN€EMISSIONSÏASSOCIATED€WITH€THIS€PROJECT€THAT€CAN€HAVE€AN€IMPACT,ÏEITHER€ON€THE€INCREMENTS€OR€ON€THE€AMBIENT€STANDARDS.€€ÌAND€IN€THE€CASE€OF€THE€PSD€PROGRAM,€THERE€WOULD€BE€AÏREVIEW€AGAINST€THOSE€INCREMENTS,€EVEN€UNDER€THEÏHYPOTHETICAL€WHERE€THERE€WOULDN'T€BE€AN€UPGRADING€OF€THEÏBACT€DETERMINATION,€AND€THAT€REVIEW€AGAINST€THEÏINCREMENTS€MIGHT€WELL€CAUSE€THERE€TO€BE€A€REQUIREMENTÏFOR€ADDITIONAL€EMISSION€REDUCTIONS.Ìà àà x àSECOND,€IN€THE€CASE€OF€NONATTAINMENT€NEWÏSOURCE€REVIEW,€WHATEVER€CALCULATED€EMISSION€INCREASESÏTHERE€WERE€ASSOCIATED€WITH€THIS--AGAIN,€EVEN€ASSUMINGÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHAT€THE€LAER€DETERMINATION€WERE€NOT€MODIFIED€„„€THOSEÏEMISSION€INCREASES€WOULD€HAVE€TO€BE€OFFSET.€€SO€WE'REÏLOSING€THE€BENEFIT€OF€THE€OFFSET€REDUCTION€REQUIREMENTÏIN€THE€NONATTAINMENT€AREA€THROUGH€THIS€EXEMPTION.Ìà àà x àAND€THEN,€FINALLY,€I€DON'T€THINK€YOU€CANÏREASONABLY€ARGUE€THAT€100€PERCENT€OF€THESE€INSTANCESÏTHERE€NEVER€WOULD€BE€AN€UPGRADE€IN€THE€TECHNOLOGYÏDETERMINATION.€€DAVID€SOLOMON,€YOU€KNOW,€TO€HIS€CREDIT,ÏHAS€IDENTIFIED€ONE€EXTREME€SITUATION€WHERE€THEÏTEN-YEAR-OLD€DETERMINATION€WAS€THAT€NO€CONTROLS€WASÏ"BACT€OR€LAER."€€AND€YOU€COULD€SEE€MANY€OTHER€GRADATIONSÏWHERE€SOME€MODEST€OPERATIONAL€REQUIREMENT€WAS€IMPOSEDÏWHICH€WAS€NOT€AT€ALL€INCOMPATIBLE€WITH€A€FUNDAMENTALÏRE-ENGINEERING€OF€THE€PIECE€OF€EQUIPMENT€TEN€YEARSÏLATER.€€Ìà àà x àSO€I€THINK€THOSE€ARE€ALL€SIGNIFICANTÏENVIRONMENTAL€ADVERSE€CONSEQUENCES€THAT€ARE€ASSOCIATEDÏWITH€THIS€EXEMPTION€AND€GIVES€RISE€TO€A€MORE€THOROUGHÏINQUIRY€AS€TO€IS€THIS€REALLY€NEEDED.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€LET'S€TRY€TO€FOCUS€ON€THEÐ °&x& ÐISSUES,€AND€WITH€THE€CARDS€UP,€SO€THAT€WE€CAN€MOVE€ON€TOÏTHE€NEXT€ISSUE.€€BUT€I€THINK€WE€NEED€TO,€YOU€KNOW,€SEEÏIF€THERE€ARE€ANY€OTHER€ISSUES€WE€NEED€TO€FLAG€FOR€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐAGENCY€OR€POTENTIAL€WAYS€TO€ADDRESS€THE€CONCERNS€THATÏHAVE€BEEN€RAISED€TO€THIS€DATE.€€Ìà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAULó ó:€€I€WANT€TO€FOLLOW€UP€WITHÐ 0 ø ÐWHAT€DAVE€SAID.€€IT'S€VERY€IMPORTANT€TO€RECOGNIZE€THATÏINHERENT€IN€THE€SUGGESTION€THAT€THERE€IS€AN€EXEMPTION€ISÏTHAT€THERE€IS€A€SIGNIFICANT€NET€EMISSIONS€INCREASE,€ANDÏEPA€IN€THE€PREAMBLE€SAID€THAT€THESE€NEWER€SOURCES€AREÏMUCH€MORE€LIKELY€TO€BE€RUNNING€AT€FULL€OPERATIONS€SO,ÏTHEREFORE,€WERE€VERY€MUCH€LESS€LIKELY€TO€BE€RUNNING€INTOÏTHE€ACTUAL€VERSUS€POTENTIAL€ISSUE.€€WHICH€CERTAINLY€ISÏAN€ISSUE,€BUT€NOT€AS€LIKELY,€AS€EPA€POINTED€OUT,€FORÏTHESE€NEW€SOURCES.Ìà àà x àIT'S€ALSO€IMPORTANT€TO€NOTE€THAT€„„€BECAUSEÏWE'RE€NOT€TALKING€INCREASES€IN€HOURLY€EMISSIONS,€WE'REÏTALKING€INCREASES€IN€ANNUAL€EMISSIONS--THAT€WHEN€WEÏLOOK€AT€BACT€AND€LAER€DETERMINATIONS€AND€WE€LOOK€ATÏDOLLARS€PER€TON,€THAT€IS€DONE€ON€AN€ANNUAL€BASIS.€ÏTHEREFORE,€THESE€PREVIOUS€DECISIONS€WERE€NOT€MADE€BASEDÏUPON€THE€HIGHER€ANNUAL€EMISSION€RATE.€€SO€THERE€MAY€HAVEÏBEEN€A€TECHNOLOGY€THAT€WAS€WORKABLE--IT€MIGHT€HAVEÏBEEN€THE€TOP€OF€A€TOP-DOWN€BACT.€€HOWEVER,€BASED€ON€THEÏECONOMICS€BECAUSE€THE€NUMBER€OF€TONS€PER€YEAR€WAS€LOWER,Ð ¨+p$, ÐTHE€DOLLARS€PER€TON€WAS€LIKELY€TO€BE€A€HIGHER€NUMBER€ANDÏCOULD€HAVE€BEEN€DISMISSED.Ìà àà x àTHE€OTHER€THING€ABOUT€GOING€BACK€TEN€YEARS,ÏIN€1988€THERE'S€A--SUMMER€OF€1988--A€SITES€MEMO€THATÏBASICALLY€DEALT€WITH€LAER€THE€SAME€WAY€AS€LOOKING€ATÏTOP-DOWN€BACT.€€AND€IT€SAID,€BASICALLY,€YOU€HAVE€TO€LOOKÏAT€A€COMBINATION€OF€CONTROL€TECHNOLOGIES,€LOOKING€NOTÏONLY€AT€THE€HARDWARE--THE€ADD-ON€CONTROLS€„„€BUT€ALSOÏTHE€POLLUTION€PREVENTION.€€SO,€FOR€EXAMPLE,€FOR€COATINGÏOPERATIONS€YOU€LOOK€AT€THE,€YOU€KNOW,€POUNDS€PER€GALLON,ÏTHE€TRANSFER€EFFICIENCY€AS€WELL€AS€ADD-ON€CONTROLÏEQUIPMENT,€AND€ALL€THREE€OF€THOSE€THINGS€HAVE€TO€BEÏLOOKED€AT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€WHEN€YOU€THINK€BACK--SO,€THEREFORE,ÏTEN€YEARS€AGOTHAT€WAS€BEFORE€THE€SITES€MEMO.€€SO€WEÏDON'T€BELIEVE€THAT€A€LOT€OF€DETERMINATIONSÏMADE,ESPECIALLY€ON€THE€LAER€SITE€TEN€YEARS€AGO,€REALLYÏMET€THAT€REQUIREMENT€OF€LOOKING€AT€THE€COMBINATION€OFÏNOT€ONLY€LOW€VOC€COATINGS,€BUT€ADD-ONSAS€THEY€ALSO€MADEÏSENSEAS€WELL€AS€TRANSFER€EFFICIENCY.Ìà àà x àANOTHER€THING€IS€THAT€WHEN€YOU€LOOK€ATÏDETERMINATIONS,€SOME€OF€THEM€HAVE€TO€DO€WITH€COATINGÏCONTENT,€AND€COATINGS€CERTAINLY€ARE€CHANGING€ANDÐ ¨+p$, ÐCHANGING€VERY€RAPIDLY.€€SO€A€COATING€DETERMINATION€THATÏMAY€HAVE€BEEN€BACT€OR€LAER€TEN€YEARS€AGO€OR€FIVE€YEARSÏAGO€OR€TWO€YEARS€AGO€IS€PROBABLY€NOT€A€BACT€OR€LAERÏDETERMINATION€NOW,€AND€THERE€IS€NO€CAPITAL€EXPENDITUREÏFOR€COATINGS€THAT,€YOU€KNOW,€WOULD€BE€RENDERED€USELESSÏIF€A€LOWER€VOC€COATING€WERE€REQUIRED€TO€BE€USED.€€Ìà àà x àSO,€YOU€KNOW,€WHERE€IS--YOU€LOOK€AT€THEÏEQUIPMENT,€AND€PERHAPS€IT'S€REASONABLE€TO€LOOK€AT€AÏREASONABLE€PAYBACK€PERIOD€ON€THE€EQUIPMENT€WHEN€THE€BACTÏOR€LAER€DETERMINATION€INCLUDED€COATINGS.€€THAT€IS€NOTÏTHE€CASE.€€THAT€MONEY€SPENT€LAST€YEAR€ON€COATINGS,€WELL,ÏTHAT€WAS€USED€ON€LAST€YEAR'S€COATINGS.€€AND€NEXT€YEAR'SÏCOATINGS,€THEY'RE€GOING€TO€BUY€SOMETHING.€€SO€THEY€DON'TÏHAVE€THE€EXPENDITURE.Ìà àà x àI€WANT€TO€JUMP€JUST€A€LITTLE€BIT€ONTO€THEÏTITLE€V€ISSUE.€€TITLE€V€IS€A€VERY€COMPLEX€PROGRAM,€ANDÏWE€ALL€ANTICIPATE€A€LONG€TIME€TO€REVIEW€AND€GO€THROUGHÏTHE€PROCESS€OF€ISSUING€PERMITS.€€TO€FURTHER€COMPLICATEÏTHE€TITLE€V€PROCESS€BY€INDUSTRIES€SUGGESTING€WE€WOULDÏLIKE€ALL€OF€THESE€EMISSIONS€UNITS€TO€BE€EVALUATED€ASÏCLEAN€UNITS€WILL€SIGNIFICANTLY€INCREASE€THE€AMOUNT€OFÏEFFORT€REQUIRED€FOR€TITLE€V,€AND€WE'LL€SEE€COMPLAINTSÏTHAT€TITLE€V€TAKES€TOO€LONG.€€WE'RE€GOING€TO€SEE€THATÐ ¨+p$, ÐANYWAY,€BUT€THIS€WILL€JUST€ADD€TO€THAT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€THIS€IS€NOT€TITLE€V'S€FAULT€THAT€PEOPLEÏWOULD€WANT€TO€USE€TITLE€V€AS€A€MECHANISM€FOR€REVIEW€OFÏCLEAN€SOURCES.€€SO€WE€ARE€VERY€MUCH€AGAINST€USINGÏTITLEV€AS€THE€MECHANISM:€€JUST€BECAUSE€IT'S€GOING€TOÏGIVE€TITLE€V€A€BLACK€EYE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€MORE€OF€A€BLACK€EYE.Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àPRAVEEN?РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMARó ó:€€PRAVEEN€AMAR,€WITH€NSCAUM.€€Ð x@  Ðà àà x àI€JUST€HAVE€A€CLARIFYING€QUESTION€OF€DAVID.€ÏTHE€SECOND€CRITERIA€FOR€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€WHERE€YOU€SAY€THEÏEPA€WILL€CERTIFY€BACT/LAER€FROM€A€STATE€MINOR€SOURCEÏREVIEW€PROGRAM,€ARE€THERE€OTHER€REQUIREMENTS€WITHIN€THEÏSTATE€MONITORING€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROGRAM€WHICH€THE€EPAÏWOULD€ALSO€CERTIFY€„„€I€MEAN€THERE€ARE€OTHER€THINGSÏBESIDES€TECHNOLOGY;€THAT€IS,€MONITORING€REQUIREMENTS,ÏTHE€EFFECTS€ON€NOòòXó󀄄€OR€WOULD€IT€BE€SIMPLY€THE€EMISSIONÐ ¸!€  ÐLIMIT€WHICH€WILL€FIND€„„€WHICH€WILL€RESULT€IN€EPA'SÏCERTIFICATION?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€EPA€WILL€BE€LOOKING€TO€SEE€IFÐ °&x& ÐTHE€TECHNOLOGY€AND€PERMIT€CONDITIONS€THAT€ARE€APPLIED€TOÏTHAT€UNIT€ARE€EQUIVALENT€TO€WHAT€WOULD€OTHERWISE€RESULTÏFROM€A€MAJOR€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW.€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMARó ó:€€OKAY,€WOULD€THE€EPA€THEN€LOOK€ATÐ 8 ÐTHE€MINOR€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROGRAM€ITSELF€AS€FEDERALLYÏENFORCEABLE€OR€JUST€THE€EMISSION€LIMITATION€PART€OF€IT?€ÏI€MEAN€THERE€HAVE€BEEN€QUESTIONS€ABOUT€STATES€MINORÏSOURCE€REVIEW€PROGRAMS€RECENTLY,€MORE€THAN€JUST€THEÏTECHNOLOGY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€I€DON'T€THINK€THAT'S€AÐ (ð  ÐQUESTION€WE'VE€LOOKED€AT€IN€THAT€DETAIL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€GOOD€POINT.€€Ð x@  Ðà àà x àLYDIA?Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€AS€FOLKS€SPEAK,€I'D€BEÐ È ÐINTERESTED€IF€ANYONE€HAS€A€REACTION€TO€DAVID€HAWKINS'ÏQUESTION;€WHICH€IS,€IF€WE€WERE€TO€DO€SOME€OF€THE€OTHERÏLIBERALIZATIONS€THAT€ARE€IN€THIS€PACKAGE--ÏPARTICULARLY,€I'D€LIKE€TO€HEAR€FROM€THE€INDUSTRYÏFOLKS--IF€YOU€FEEL€YOU€COULD€LIVE€WITHOUT€THE€CLEANÏUNIT€CLEAN/CLEAN€FACILITY€TEST.€€I'D€JUST€BE€INTERESTEDÏIN€ANY€REACTIONS€TO€THAT€POINT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€JOHN?Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àò òMR.BUNYAKó ó:€€JOHN€BUNYAK,€NATIONAL€PARKÐ °&x& ÐSERVICE.Ìà àà x àDAVID€CARR€„„€EXCUSE€ME.€€DAVID€HAWKINS€ANDÏò òICLALó ó€IDENTIFIED€THE€POTENTIAL€INCREMENT€OR€STANDARDÐ ¨+p$, ÐPROBLEMS€WITH€EXEMPT€„„€WITH€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXEMPTION.€ÏTHESE€EMISSIONS€COULD€ALSO€CAUSE€IMPACTS€ON€AIR€QUALITYÏRELATED€VALUES€AT€CLASS€I€AREAS,€AND€THERE€WOULD€BE€NOÏMECHANISM€FOR€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€TO€GET€IN€THEÏLOOP€ON€THAT.€Ìà àà x àONE€WAY€TO€MINIMIZE€THE€IMPACTS€ON€CLASS€IÏRESOURCES€IS€TO€MINIMIZE€THE€EMISSIONS.€€I€THINK€THATÏTHERE€SHOULD€BE€EVERY€OPPORTUNITY€TO€MAKE€SURE€THAT€ANYÏINCREASED€EMISSIONS€ARE€GOING€TO€BE€CONTROLLED€TO€THEÏBEST€THEY€CAN,€WHICH€LEADS€TO€ONE€GENERAL€COMMENT€ON€THEÏAPPLICABILITY€PROVISIONS.€€Ìà àà x àEPA€DOES€A€GOOD€JOB€WITH€IMPROVING€THE€FLM€ÏCOORDINATION/NOTIFICATION€PROVISIONS,€BUT,€ON€THE€OTHERÏHAND,€THEY€ACKNOWLEDGE€THAT€THE€50€PERCENT€„„€50€PERCENTÏOR€MORE€OF€THE€SOURCES€WILL€BE€EXEMPT€FROM€PSD€REVIEWÏTHAT€WOULD€OTHERWISE€UNDERGO€REVIEW€UNDER€THE€CURRENTÏREGULATIONS,€WHICH€MEANS€THAT,€YOU€KNOW,€WE'RE€GETTINGÏBETTER€NOTIFICATION,€BUT,€ON€THE€OTHER€HAND,€A€LOT€OFÏTHOSE€SOURCES€WON'T€BE€GOING€THROUGH€THAT€PROCESS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€BILL?Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERSó ó:€€THANKS.€€I€WANT€TO€MAKE€SUREÐ X( !( ÐTHAT€WE€DON'T€GET€AWAY€FROM€THIS€WITHOUT€SOMEBODY€SAYINGÏ"ATTABOY"€OR€"WAY€TO€GO"€BECAUSE€I€ACTUALLY€THINK€THISÐ ¨+p$, ÐIS€A€PRETTY€GOOD€PROVISION,€AND€I€REALLY€APPRECIATEÏEPA'S€ATTEMPT€TO€RECOGNIZE€THE€FACT€THAT€YOU€GET€VERYÏMARGINAL€BENEFIT€WHEN€YOU€GO€THROUGH€THIS€REVIEW€PRETTYÏCLOSE€ON€THE€HEELS€OF€A€PSD€DETERMINATION.Ìà àà x àFROM€A€UTILITY€INDUSTRY€PERSPECTIVE€OR€SOMEÏOF€THE€MORE€MAJOR€COMBUSTIONS€FORCE€PERSPECTIVES,€I'DÏSAY€THIS€IS€PROBABLY€NOT€A€HUGE€BENEFIT€IF€YOU'REÏLOOKING€AT€REALLY€BIG€SOURCES€OR€BIG€UNDERTAKINGS.€€BUTÏMY€EXPERIENCE€IS€IS€THAT€A€LOT€OF€THE€UTILITY€UNITS€ANDÏA€LOT€OF€THE€OTHER€NON-UTILITY€UNITS€WOULD€GET€A€LOT€OFÏBENEFIT€FROM€THIS€BECAUSE€THEY€ARE€CONSTANTLY€COMING€TOÏUS€AND€ASKING€QUESTIONS:€€IS€THIS€A€MODIFICATION?€€DO€IÏHAVE€TO€DO€A€BEFORE€AND€AFTER€ACTUAL-TO-POTENTIAL€ORÏACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUAL€ANALYSIS?€€Ìà àà x àAND€THAT€CONSUMES€HUGE€AMOUNTS€OF€TIME€JUSTÏTO€FIGURE€THAT€OUT;€AND€ONCE€THEY€FIGURE€THAT€OUT,€THENÏTHEY€HAVE€TO€GO€THROUGH€THIS€PROCESS,€WELL,€GEE,€NOW€WEÏHAVE€TO€GO€IN€AND€SUBMIT€AN€APPLICATION.€€AND€THEÏREALITY€IS€THAT€MAYBE€YOU€HAVE€TO€PUT€ON€SOME€DIFFERENTÏKIND€OF€CONTROLS€OR€MAYBE€YOU€HAVE€TO€TAKE€SOME€KIND€OFÏA€PERMIT€LIMITATION€THAT'S€RELATIVELY€PAINLESS,€BUT€ITÏIS€A€HUMONGOUS€AMOUNT€OF€ADMINISTRATIVE€AND€RESOURCEÏALLOCATION€FOR€WHAT€I€EXPECT€TO€BE€A€NEGLIGIBLE€OR€MINORÐ ¨+p$, ÐENVIRONMENTAL€BENEFIT.Ìà àà x àMOST€OF€THE€TYPES€OF€PROJECTS€THAT€YOU'REÏTALKING€ABOUT€ON€SOURCES€THAT€HAVE€GONE€THROUGH€PSD€ORÏNEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€AND€HAVE€TECHNOLOGY€IN€THE€LAST€TENÏYEARS€IS€MINOR€EFFICIENCY€IMPROVEMENTS€SO€THAT€YOU'REÏACTUALLY€GOING€TO€GET€REDUCTIONS€IN€THE€EMISSIONS€PERÏHOUR€OR€EMISSIONS€PER€PRODUCT€GENERATED.€€AND€THEREÏIS,I€THINK--I€COMPLETELY€DISPUTE€THE€CONTENTION€THATÏI'VE€HEARD€THAT€IT€NECESSARILY€THEN--EXTENSIONÏNECESSARILY€MEANS€YOU'RE€GOING€TO€END€UP€WITH€ANÏINCREASED€UTILIZATION€AND€INCREASED€EMISSIONS.€€Ìà àà x àYOU€CAN'T€DRAW€THAT€CONCLUSION€AT€ALL.€€ITÏDOESN'T€MEAN,€BECAUSE€WE'RE€NOT€GOING€TO€GO€THROUGH€NEWÏSOURCE€REVIEW,€THAT€WE'RE€GOING€TO€START€OPERATING€THISÏUNIT€AT€20€PERCENT€HIGHER€CAPACITY€UTILIZATION€DURINGÏTHE€COURSE€OF€THE€YEAR.€€THAT'S€JUST€NONSENSE.€€Ìà àà x àIT€TYPICALLY€WILL€SIMPLY€GO€TO€EITHER€WHATÏYOU€CAN'T€CLEARLY€CHARACTERIZE€AS€A€ROUTINE€PROJECT,€BUTÏYOU€STILL€DON'T€HAVE€TO€GO€THROUGH€ALL€OF€THE€HOOPLA€OFÏFIVE€YEARS€OF€DATA€GATHERING€AND€MODELING,€OR€IT'S€ANÏEFFICIENCY€IMPROVEMENT€WHICH€IS€GOING€TO€GET€YOU€BETTERÏENVIRONMENTAL€PERFORMANCE,€FOR€THE€MOST€PART.Ìà àà x àTO€RESPOND€DIRECTLY€TO€THE€QUESTION€YOUÐ ¨+p$, ÐRAISED,OR€THAT€DAVID€RAISED,€LYDIA,€I€THINK€THE€ANSWERÏIS€"NO."€€WE€DON'T€WANT€TO€LIVE€WITHOUT€THIS€EVEN€IF€WEÏGET€SOME€OF€THE€FLEXIBILITY,€AND€THE€REASON€IS€IS€THATÏIN€SOME€INDUSTRIES--AND€I€CAN€THINK€OF€SORT€OFÏBATCH-PROCESSING€CHEMICAL€PHARMACEUTICALSWHERE€YOU'REÏGOING€TO€BE€DOING€PROJECTS€ON€A€MORE€FREQUENT€BASIS€THANÏEVERY€TEN€YEARS,€WHERE€YOU€HAVE€TO€MAKE€SOME€MINORÏCHANGES€TO€ACCOMMODATE€A€NEW€PROCESS€OR€A€NEW€PRODUCT,ÏBUT€YOU'RE€STILL€NOT€GOING€TO€CHANGE€YOUR€EMISSIONS€INÏANY€GREAT€DEGREE--THIS€PROVIDES€A€GREAT€DEGREE€OFÏRELIEF.€€Ìà àà x àI€THINK€IT€IS€A€REAL€EVEN-HANDED€APPROACHÏTHAT€IS€BROADER€THAN€THE€MICROMANAGEMENT€THAT€SOME€OFÏTHE€STATES€ARE€OBLIGATED€TO€DEAL€WITH,€BUT€IT€IS€A€GOODÏPOLICY€DECISION€WHICH€SAYS,€BY€AND€LARGE,€THAT€YOU€DON'TÏWANT€TO€IMPOSE€SUCH€COSTS€ON€ALL€OF€THE€INDUSTRY€AND€ALLÏOF€THE€STATES€FOR€WHAT€IS€LIKELY€TO€BE€EXCEPTIONALLYÏMINOR€ENVIRONMENTAL€BENEFITS.€€AND€I€THINK€IT'S€A€GOOD,ÏBALANCED€APPROACH,€AND€I'LL€LEAVE€IT€AT€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€ERNIE?Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.ROSENBERGó ó:€€ERNIE€ROSENBERG,€OCCIDENTAL.Ð X( !( Ðà àà x àI€WANT€TO€START,€ALSO,€BY€SAYING€THATÏPROBABLY€THE€MOST€IMPORTANT€PART€OF€THIS€PACKAGE,€FROMÐ ¨+p$, ÐMY€PERSPECTIVE€AND€THE€PERSPECTIVE€OF€THE€GROUPS€THATÏI'VE€BEEN€WORKING€WITH,€IS€THE€ACCEPTANCE€BY€EPA€THATÏNSR€FOR€FACILITIES€THAT€ARE€ALREADY€WELL„CONTROLLED€ISÏSIMPLY€A€BAD€USE€OF€RESOURCES€FOR€INDUSTRY€AND€FOR€STATEÏREGULATORS€AND€FOR€THE€FEDERAL€REGULATORS.€€THAT'S€JUSTÏAN€ENORMOUS€CHANGE.€€Ìà àà x àINSTEAD€OF€THIS€BEING€DRIVEN€BY€A€LAWYERLYÏANALYSIS€OF€WHAT'S€REQUIRED€BY€EVERY€COMMA€AND€PERIOD€INÏTHE€òòCLEAN€AIR€ACTóó,€IT€STARTS€FROM,€FIRST,€PRINCIPLES,Ð x@  ÐWHICH€IS,€YOU€KNOW,€WHAT€ARE€YOU€GETTING€FROM€THIS€FROMÏAN€AIR€QUALITY€STANDPOINT?€€SO€FROM€THAT€PERSPECTIVE€IÏTHINK€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXEMPTION€IS€AN€EXTRAORDINARILYÏIMPORTANT€CONCEPTUAL€STEP€ON€THE€PART€OF€THE€AGENCY.Ìà àà x àIN€RESPONSE€TO--AND€I€„„€BUT€I€AGREE€THATÏTHERE'S€TOO€MUCH€COMPLEXITY€HERE,€AND€I€THINK€THAT€THEREÏIS€„„€THERE€IS€„„€THERE€ARE€TOO€MANY€HOOPS€TO€JUMPÏTHROUGH.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€REAL€KEY€THAT€WILL€COME€UP€WITH€REGARDÏTO--THAT€HAS€COME€UP€WITH€REGARD€TO€THIS,€THAT€REALLYÏWILL€COME€UP€WITH€ALMOST€ALL€OF€THE€DISCUSSION€ON€THEÏREFORM€PARTS€OF€THIS€PACKAGE€AS€OPPOSED€TO€THE€CLASS€IÏPARTS€OF€THE€PACKAGE,€IS€THAT€WE'VE€GOT€TO€COME€TO€SOMEÏKIND€OF€UNDERSTANDING€ABOUT€WHAT'S€THE€VALUE€OF€NSR€ANDÐ ¨+p$, ÐSTART€FROM€THAT,€AS€OPPOSED€TO€STARTING€FROM€THEÏANALYSIS€OF€EVERY€HYPOTHETICAL€THAT€MIGHT€ARISE€UNDERÏEVERY€CIRCUMSTANCE€WHERE€YOU€CHANGE€THE€RULES.€€Ìà àà x àTHAT€KIND€OF€ANALYSIS€INEVITABLY€OVERLOOKSÏTHE€CURRENT€VALUE€THAT€COULD€HAVE€BEEN€ACHIEVED€BYÏMODIFICATIONS,€BUT€THAT€ISN'T€ACHIEVED€BECAUSE€OF€THEÏCOST€AND€COMPLEXITY€OF€THE€PROCESS,€AND€IT€OVERLOOKS€THEÏAMOUNT€OF€RESOURCES€THAT€ARE€WASTED€ON€THE€PROCESS€THATÏTODAY€COULD€BE€FOCUSED€ON€MUCH€MORE€EFFECTIVE€EMISSIONÏREDUCTION€STRATEGIES€THAN€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROVIDES.Ìà àà x àSO€IF--I€MEAN,€IF€WE€SIT€AROUND€TODAY€WITHÏA€DISCUSSION€THAT€SAYS,€WELL,€I€CAN€DREAM€UP€A€SCENARIOÏUNDER€WHICH€THIS€WOULD€CAUSE€AN€INCREASE€ABOUT€WHICHÏWE'D€BE€CONCERNED,€WE€MIGHT€AS€WELL€ALL€GO€HOME€BECAUSEÏYOU'LL€NEVER€BE€ABLE€TO€REFORM€THIS€PACKAGE€IN€A€WAYÏTHAT€WON'T€UNDER€SOME€HYPOTHETICAL€BE€ABLE€TO€GENERATEÏSOME€KIND€OF€A€PROBLEM.Ìà àà x àAS€FAR€AS€THE€BURDENS€ON€THE€TITLE€V€PROCESSÏGO,€I€THINK€THAT€„„€I€CERTAINLY€AGREE€WITH€JOHN'SÏCOMMENTS€ABOUT€THE€EXISTING€TITLE€V€PROCESS.€€BUT€AÏCHANGE€„„€THESE€KINDS€OF€CHANGES€AND€THESE€KINDS€OFÏLIMITATIONS€AND€THE€UPGRADING€OF€MONITORING€THAT'S€GOINGÏTO€BE€REQUIRED€INEVITABLY€ARE€GOING€TO€RAISE€THESEÐ ¨+p$, ÐISSUES.€€IT'S€ONLY€GOING€TO€RAISE€THE€ISSUES€FOR€CASESÏWHERE€THERE€HAS€BEEN€WHAT€WOULD€OTHERWISE€HAVE€BEEN€AÏMAJOR€MODIFICATION.€€Ìà àà x àSO€IT€SEEMS€TO€ME€THAT€THE€BURDEN€ON€THEÏTITLE€V€PROCESS€IS€MINIMAL€AS€LONG€AS€THE€TITLE€VÏPROCESS€ITSELF€IS€REFORMED€SO€THAT€IF€THERE'S€NO€REALÏDECISION€TO€BE€MADE€AT€THAT€POINT,€YOU€DON'T€GO€THROUGHÏA€SIGNIFICANT€PERMIT€MODIFICATION.Ìà àà x àAND,€FINALLY,€WE'RE€TRIPPING€EACH€OTHER€UPÏON€THIS€DIFFERENCE€BETWEEN€THE€HOURLY€EMISSIONS€AND€THEÏANNUAL€EMISSIONS,€AND€WE'VE€GOT€TO€BE€VERY€CAREFUL€ABOUTÏTHAT.€€IN€SOME€CASES€WE'RE€USING€THAT€ARGUMENT€TO€SAY,ÏWELL,€LOOK,€THERE'S€NOT€GOING€TO€BE€ANY€INCREASE€INÏHOURLY€EMISSIONS,€SO€THERE'S€„„€IT'S€HARD€TO€SEE€THATÏYOU'D€HAVE€AN€IMPACT€ON€INCREMENTS€OR€WHATEVER.€€Ìà àà x àON€THE€OTHER€HAND,€WE'RE€LOOKING€AT€WHATÏMIGHT€HAPPEN€TO€ANNUAL€EMISSIONS,€AND€WE'RE€HEARINGÏAGAIN€THAT€OLD€ARGUMENT€„„€THAT€I€SUBMIT€HAS€ABSOLUTELYÏDATA€TO€SUPPORT€IT€IN€THE€REAL€WORLD€„„€THAT€BECAUSE€YOUÏGO€THROUGH€A€MODIFICATION€YOU€SUBSTANTIALLY€INCREASE€THEÏUTILIZATION€OF€THE€FACILITY.€€THAT€MAY€BE€TRUE€IN€SOMEÏSECTORS,€BUT€IT'S€NOT€TRUE€OVERALL.€€AND€IF€THAT€IS€TRUEÏOF€SOME€SECTORS,€LET'S€IDENTIFY€THOSE€SECTORS€AND€DESIGNÐ ¨+p$, ÐA€TEST€THAT€WORKS€AROUND€THAT.€Ìà àà x àTHE€IMPORTANT€THING€TO€BEAR€IN€MIND€HERE€ISÏNOT€WHETHER€OR€NOT€YOU€CAN€DESIGN€SOME€KIND€OF€PROBLEMÏIN€THIS€THING.€€THE€PROBLEM€„„€THE€IMPORTANT€THING€HEREÏIS€IS€IT€„„€DOES€IT€MAKE€SENSE€FOR€A€GIVEN€CONCERN€TOÏHAVE€A€NATIONWIDE€PROCESS€THAT€WILL€REQUIRE€EVERY€CHANGEÏTO€GO€THROUGH€AN€ANALYSIS€BECAUSE€SOME€SMALL€FRACTION€OFÏTHE€CHANGES€MIGHT€HAVE€BEEN,€IN€RETROSPECT,€SOMETHINGÏYOU€WISH€HADN'T€HAPPENED.€€THAT'S€NOT€THE€WAY€TO€MAKE€AÏDETERMINATION€OF€WHAT€THE€IMPACT€ON€AIR€QUALITY€WILL€BE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY,€THE€LAST€THREE€CARDS,€ANDÐ È ÐTHEN€WE'LL€MOVE€ON€TO€THE€NEXT€ISSUE.€€Ìà àà x àCHUCK?Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSó óS:€€I'M€CHUCK€KNAUS.€€Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àA€FEW€OBSERVATIONS€AND€THEN€A€QUESTIONÏREGARDING€TIMING€FOR€DAVID,€IF€HE€COULD€CONSIDER€IT.Ìà àà x àI€THINK€THAT€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€AND€CLEANÏFACILITY€EXCLUSION€COMBINED€WITH€PAL€REFLECT€AN€EFFORTÏTO€IMPLEMENT€A€POLICY€OF€MOVING€OFF€CHANGE-BY-CHANGEÏANALYSIS€AND€TRYING€TO€FREE€UP€RESOURCES€FROM€HAVING€TOÏSCRUTINIZE€EVERY€CHANGE€WITH€THE€COMPLEXITY€THAT€DAVEÏMENTIONED.€€I€THINK€IT'S€CLEAR€AS€WE€TRY€TO€ANALYZEÏCLEAN€UNIT€THAT€THERE€ARE€MANY€THINGS€THAT€WOULD€FALLÐ ¨+p$, ÐOUT€UNDER€OTHER€EXCLUSIONS€OR€WOULD€NOT€RISE€TO€THEÏLEVEL€OF€A€PHYSICAL€CHANGE€OR€A€CHANGE€IN€METHOD€OFÏOPERATION.€€THIS€MAY€PROVIDE€A€MORE€SIMPLE€WAY€OF€MAKINGÏTHAT€DETERMINATION.€€THAT€MAY€BE€ITS€GREATEST€BENEFIT.€Ìà àà x àI€THINK€THE€TIME€PERIOD€OF€TEN€YEARS€ISÏREFLECTIVE€OF€A€PERIOD€NEEDED€TO€RETURN€INVESTMENT€ONÏTHE€TECHNOLOGY,€AND€I€THINK€THAT€MAKES€SENSE.Ìà àà x àIN€TRYING€TO€EVALUATE€THIS€EXCLUSION,€ASÏWELL€AS€OTHER€EXCLUSIONS€IN€THE€PACKAGE,€WE'RE€TRYING€TOÏFIGURE€OUT€WHEN€THEY€MIGHT€BE€EFFECTIVE.€€AND€IT€WOULDÏBE€USEFUL€TO€HEAR€JUST€A€HYPOTHETICAL€TIME€LINEÏPRESENTED€AS€TO€THIS€PACKAGE€„„€ASSUMING€PROMULGATION€ATÏSOME€POINT€IN€THE€FUTURE,€ONE€YEAR,€ONE€AND€ONE-HALFÏYEARS,€TWO€YEARS;€I'M€NOT€SURE€HOW€LONG€IT€MIGHT€TAKE€TOÏPUSH€FORWARD€„„€AND€THEN€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THE€FIRSTÏCATEGORY€THAT€DAVID€MENTIONED,€PRESUMPTIVE€BACT,€WHENÏTHE--WHERE€YOU€HAVE€BACT€OR€LAER€IN€PLACE,IN€WHICHÏCASE€IT€WOULD€AUTOMATICALLY€QUALIFY€FOR€THIS€EXCLUSIONÏAS€OPPOSED€TO€A€DETERMINATION€THAT€HAS€TO€BE€MADEÏTHROUGH€A€STATE€PROGRAM,€WHEN€WOULD€THAT€„„€WHEN€COULDÏWE€EXPECT€THAT€SORT€OF€DECISION€TO€TAKE€PLACE?€€AND€THENÏWITH€RESPECT€TO€HAVING€CERTIFIED€PROGRAMS,€ARE€WEÏLOOKING€FOUR€YEARS€OUT?€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àI€THINK€FOR€THIS€EXCLUSION,€AS€WELL€ASÏOTHERS,I€NOTE€THAT€BECAUSE€„„€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THEÏGUIDANCE€COMMENT€„„€GUIDANCE€ON€A€FEW€ISSUES€COULD,€INÏFACT,€BE€IMPLEMENTED€IMMEDIATELY€TO€THE€EXTENT€IT'SÏINTERPRETING€CURRENT€LAW€AND€CURRENT€REGULATION,€ASÏOPPOSED€TO€WHAT'S€LAID€OUT€HERE€WHICH€MAY€BE€FIVE€YEARSÏOR€FOUR€YEARS€AWAY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID?РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€ACTUALLY,€DENNIS€IS€THE€ONE€TOÐ x@  ÐSPEAK€TO€TIMING€OF€THE€PACKAGE,€BUT€RIGHT€NOW€OURÏSCHEDULE€WOULD€PROBABLY€PUT€US--ASSUMING€WE€COME€UPÏWITH€WORKABLE€RESPONSES€TO€THE€MANY€ISSUES€THAT€HAVEÏBEEN€RAISED--A€YEAR€FROM€THE€DATE€OF€PROPOSAL.€€Ìà àà x àAT€THAT€TIME,€FOR€EXAMPLE,€IF€THE€AGENCYÏWERE€TO€USE€A€CLEAN€UNIT€TEST€AS€PART€OF€THE€FEDERALÏREGULATIONS,€IT€WOULD€BE€EFFECTIVE€IMMEDIATELY€IN€THOSEÏSTATES€WHERE€THEY€HAVE€A€DELEGATED€PROGRAM.€€IN€OTHERÏSTATES,€THE€STATES€WOULD€HAVE€TO€AMEND€THEIR€PROGRAMS€TOÏPROVIDE€FOR€THAT€TYPE€OF€TEST.€€IN€THAT€CASE€WE€COULD€BEÏLOOKING€ANYWHERE€FROM€THREE€TO€FOUR€YEARS€OUT€FROMÏTODAY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€STEVE?Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.€KNAUSS:ó ó€€DAVID,€WHAT€IS€„„Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€I'M€SORRY.€€GO€AHEAD.Ð 8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSó óS:€€DO€YOU€KNOW€OFF€THE€TOP€JUSTРਠÐHOW€MANY€DELEGATED--Ìà àà x àò òMR.€SOLOMON:ó ó€€ABOUT€„„Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.€KNAUSS:ó 󀀄„€YOU€KNOW,€WHATTHE€RELATIVEÐ Ø   ÐNUMBERS€ARE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€I€THINK€IT'S€APPROXIMATELYÐ (ð  ÐTWELVE€OR€SO€STATES€HAVE€DELEGATED.€€IT€MAY€BE€ELEVENÏNOW,€AND€THE€REST€ARE€SIP€APPROVED.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSó óS:€€SO€WE'RE€LOOKING€AT€35€OR€SOÐ  è ÐTHAT€WOULD€BE€FOUR€YEARS€BEYOND€PROMULGATION?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€WELL,€I€WOULD€SAY€TWO€YEARS,Ð p8 ÐDEPENDING€ON€HOW€QUICKLY€THE€STATE€PROCESS€MOVES€ALONG.Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSó óS:€€OKAY.Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àò òMR.KATAOKAó ó:€€THAT'S€FOR€PSD.€€ALLÐ h0 ÐNONATTAINMENT€PROGRAMS,€RIGHT,€„„Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€RIGHT.€€Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.€KNAUSS:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àò òMR.€KATAOKA:ó 󀀄„€ARE€NOT€DELEGATED.Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€STEVE?Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€THE€NONATTAINMENT€NEW€SOURCEÐ X( !( ÐREVIEW€PERMITTING€IS€NOT€A€DELEGATED€PROGRAM.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€STEVE?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.FOTISó ó:€€STEVEN€FOTIS,€OF€VAN€NESSÐ 8 ÐFELDMAN.€€Ìà àà x àIN€RESPONSE€TO€YOUR€QUESTION€AS€TO€WHAT€YOUÏTHINK€THE€IMPACT€MIGHT€BE€OR€IMPLICATIONS€IF€ONE€WAS€TOÏNOT€OFFER€THIS€EXEMPTION,€ONE€OBSERVATION€FROM€OURÏPERSPECTIVE€IS€THAT€IT€WOULD€PROBABLY€INCREASE€THE€NEEDÏFOR€PAL'S€AS€A€WAY€TO€PROVIDE€A€SIMPLE€„„€A€SIMPLIFIEDÏTEST€FOR€APPLICABILITY,€AND€THAT,€I€THINK,€ISÏOBVIOUSLY--AT€LEAST€IN€THE€EARLY€YEARS--IS€GOING€TOÏBE€MORE€INTENSIVE€FROM€AN€ADMINISTRATIVE€PERSPECTIVE.Ìà àà x àAND,€ALSO,€JUST€TO€NOTE€THAT€IN€THEÏPROPOSAL,€THAT€EPA€WOULD€NOTOR€HAD€INDICATED€AN€INTENTÏTO€NONAUTHORIZE€THE€USE€OF€PAL'S€BY€NEW€GREENFIELDÏSOURCES€IN€ATTAINMENT€AREAS.€€SO€YOU€WOULD€HAVE€TO,ÏOBVIOUSLY,€EXPAND€THE€PAL€CONCEPT€THERE€TO€ALLOW€IT.€€IÏMEAN,€THAT'S€JUST€AN€EXAMPLE€OF,€I€THINK,€EPA'S€THINKINGÏTHAT€PAL'S€WOULDN'T€BE€NECESSARY€FOR€NEW€GREENFIELDÏSOURCES,€AND€YOU€WOULD€HAVE€TO€HAVE€IT€AVAILABLE€IN€THATÏSITUATION.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€DAVID?€€DO€YOU€HAVE€ANOTHER--Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH,€JUST€A€BRIEF€EFFORT€TOÐ X( !( ÐSEE--I€SENSE€THAT,€IN€SOME€REGARD,€WE'RE€TALKING€PASTÏEACH€OTHER.€€WE€RAISE€„„€WE€RAISE€SITUATIONS€WHERE€THEREÐ ¨+p$, ÐWOULD€BE€INCREASES€IN€EMISSIONS€ASSOCIATED€WITH€AÏMODIFICATION,€AND€THE€RESPONSE€FROM€BILL€AND€ERNIE€ISÏTHAT€NOT€EVERY€CHANGE€RESULTS€IN€AN€INCREASE,€AND,ÏTHEREFORE,€THERE'S€NO€BENEFIT€AT€ALL€FROM€THIS.€€AND€IÏTHINK,€YOU€KNOW,€THOSE€ARE€SORT€OF€COMMENTS€THAT€TALKÏPAST€ONE€ANOTHER.€€Ìà àà x àI€THINK€WHAT€THOSE€COMMENTS€IN€TOTO€POINT€UPÏIS€THAT€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXEMPTION€IS€NOT€SUFFICIENTLYÏDISCRIMINATING.€€IT€EXEMPTS€THOSE€UNITS€WHERE€THERE€ISÏNO€REAL€INCREASE€IN€EMISSIONS,€BUT€IT€ALSO€EXEMPTS€THOSEÏUNITS€WHERE€THERE€IS€ONE.€€AND€THE€JOB€IS€TO€SEE€IF€IT'SÏPOSSIBLE€TO€COME€UP€WITH€A€MORE€DISCRIMINATING€TECHNIQUEÏTHAT€DEALS€WITH€THE€CONCERNS€THAT€I€AND€THE€STATE€ANDÏLOCAL€AND€PARK€SERVICE€ENFORCERS€HAVE€RAISED€WITHOUT,€IFÏIT'S€POSSIBLE,€SWEEPING€IN€THE€CHANGES€THAT€EVERYONEÏWOULD€AGREE€DON'T€RAISE€ANY€POTENTIAL€FOR€INCREASEDÏEMISSIONS€THAT€REQUIRE€THIS€DEDICATION€OF€RESOURCES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€IF€THERE€ARE€NO€OTHERÐ `#(" ÐCOMMENTS--Ìà àà x àò òMS.€WEGMAN:ó ó€€JOHN€HAS€A€COMMENT.Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€OH.€€I'M€SORRY,€JOHN.€€I€MISSEDÐ X( !( ÐYOU.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RUSCIGNOó ó:€€JOHN€RUSCIGNO,€STATE€OFÐ ¨+p$, ÐOREGON.€€Ìà àà x àI€JUST€WANTED€TO€MAKE€A€QUICK€COMMENT€ABOUTÏUSING€THE€TITLE€V€MECHANISM.€€OREGON'S€ABOUT€YEAR€ANDÏONE-HALF€INTO€ISSUING€TITLE€V€PERMITS,€AND€IT'S€QUITE€AÏCHALLENGE€TO€GET€THESE€OUT€IN€THE€TIME€PERIOD€UNDER€THEÏCURRENT€PROGRAM.€€ADDING€ANOTHER€REVIEW€IS€JUST€AÏBACK-BREAKER.€€I'LL€LEAVE€IT€AT€THAT.€€WE€DON'T€NEED€IT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€SPOKEN€BY€SOMEONE€WHO'S€GOINGРИ  ÐTHROUGH€THE€PROCESS.€€Ìà àà x àLET'S€MOVE€ON€THEN€TO€THE€NEXT€ISSUE.€ÏAGAIN,€AS€LYDIA€HAS€SUGGESTED€„„€PARTICULARLY€THEÏCOMMITTEE€MEMBERS,€BUT€ANYBODY€IN€THE€AUDIENCE€WHO€WILLÏBE€COMMENTING€ON€THIS€RULE€„„€AGAIN,€IT€WOULD€BE€HELPFULÏNOT€ONLY€TO€ADDRESS€WAYS€TO€IMPROVE€IT,€BUT€ALSO€WHAT€ITÏMEANS€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THE€IMPORTANCE€OF€THE€PACKAGE€AS€AÏWHOLE,€OR,€AS€I€THINK€STEVE€MENTIONED,€YOU€KNOW,€WHATÏIMPACT€WOULD€ITS€ELIMINATION€HAVE€ON€OTHER€PROGRAMS€WILLÏBE€EXTREMELY€USEFUL€TO€THE€AGENCY€IN€TERMS€OF€ITS€TRYINGÏTO€ASSESS€WHAT€REVISIONS€OR€CHANGES€IT€SHOULD€MAKE€TOÏTHIS€PROVISION.Ìà àà x àTHE€NEXT€ISSUE€THAT€SEEMED€TO€RAISE€A€GREATÏDEAL€OF€DISCUSSION€INVOLVED€THE€NETTING€BASELINE€ITSELF.€ÏJUST€TO€REFRESH€YOUR€RECOLLECTION,€THE€PROPOSED€RULEÐ ¨+p$, ÐSUGGESTS€THAT€A€UTILIZATION€LEVEL€OR,€I€THINK,€CAPACITYÏFACTOR€THAT€THEY€USED€WILL€BE€THE€HIGHEST€CONSECUTIVEÏTWELVE-MONTH€PERIOD€IN€THE€TEN€YEARS€PRECEDING€THEÏPROPOSED€CHANGE;€AND€IN€NONATTAINMENT€AREAS€AND€IN€THEÏOZONE€TRANSPORT€REGIONS,€THE€BASELINE€COULDN'T€BEGINÏPRIOR€TO€NOVEMBER€11,€1990.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€GENERAL€COMMENTS€THAT€WERE€RECEIVED,€IÏTHINK,€FELL€INTO€THREE€CATEGORIES.€€GENERALLY€SPEAKING,ÏTHE€INDUSTRY€MEMBERS€COMMENTED€FAVORABLY€ON€THIS.€€ASÏYOU'LL€RECALL€FROM€OUR€EARLIER€MEETINGS,€THIS€WASÏDESIGNED€TO€ADDRESS€INDUSTRIES€THAT€ARE€CYCLICAL,€THATÏFIND€IT€DIFFICULT€AND€CONSTRAINING€WITH€NO€EQUIVALENTÏBENEFIT€TO€OPERATE€UNDER€THE€CURRENT€PROGRAM.€€SO,ÏGENERALLY,€THEY€APPRECIATED€THIS€ABILITY€TO€OPERATE€IN€AÏMORE€OPEN€MANNER.€€Ìà àà x àTHEY€DID€HAVE€SOME€COMMENTS,€HOWEVER,€INÏTHAT€THE€FIRST€ONE€WOULD€BE€THAT€THE€UTILIZATION€FACTORSÏIN€THE€PAST,€THAT€MAY€BE€VERY€COMPLICATED€TO€DEVELOP.€ÏAND€THAT€IS--THE€COMMENT€COMES€FROM€PEOPLE€WHO€HAVEÏDIFFERENT€PRODUCTS,€DIFFERENT€PROCESSES,€ETC.€€THIS€ISÏNOT,€FOR€INSTANCE,€A€PLANT€THAT€CHURNS€OUT€THE€SAMEÏPRODUCT€WITH€THE€SAME€PROCESS€FOR€TEN€YEARS.€€IF€YOUÏHAVE€TO€GO€BACK€AND€ATTEMPT€TO€IDENTIFY€WHICH€YEARÐ ¨+p$, ÐYOU'RE€GOING€TO€USE€IN€THAT€LAST€TEN€YEARS,€THEY€FELTÏTHAT€THE€COMPARABILITY€ISSUE€FOR€DETERMINING€THATÏUTILIZATION€RATE€WOULD€BE€EXTREMELY€DIFFICULT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€I€THINK€WE€ALSO€HEARD€THAT€THE€STATESÏTHOUGHT€THAT€THEY€WOULD€HAVE,€OBVIOUSLY,€ADDED€BURDEN€INÏSITTING€DOWN€WITH€THEIR€SOURCES€TO€MAKE€THAT€ANALYSIS.Ìà àà x àA€SECOND€COMMENT€WAS€THAT€USING€CURRENTÏALLOWABLE€EMISSIONS€RATE€IS€NOT€THE€BEST€WAY€TO€GO€INÏTHAT€THE€CURRENT€EMISSION€FACTORS€ONLY€WORK,€AGAIN,€IFÏTHE€PAST€PRODUCTS€AND€OPERATIONS€WERE€THE€SAME.€€ALSO,ÏIT'S€PUNITIVE€TO€COMPANIES€THAT€ACTUALLY€HAVE€INSTALLEDÏPOLLUTION€PREVENTION€PROGRAMS.€THEY€WILL,€IN€EFFECT,ÏLOSE€THEIR€BASELINE,€HAVING€DONE€SOMETHING€THAT€HASÏBENEFITTED€THE€ENVIRONMENT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€SO€IN€TERMS€OF€IDENTIFYING€WHAT€THEÏCURRENT€ALLOWABLE€EMISSION€RATE€WAS,€THE€SUGGESTION€WASÏTHAT€YOU€SIMPLY€ADJUST,€BASED€ON€WHATEVER€THE€CURRENTÏREGULATIONS€WERE€SINCE€THE€TIME€OF€THE€HIGHEST€FACTORÏTHAT€YOU'RE€USING.€€DAVID€HAWKINS€RAISED€THE€FACT€THAT,ÏIN€FACT,€WHAT€YOU€SHOULD€BE€LOOKING€AT€HERE€IS€CURRENTÏACTUALS€IN€TERMS€OF€MAKING€YOUR€DETERMINATION.Ìà àà x àAND€THEN,€FINALLY,€THE€STATES€AGAIN€RAISEDÏTHE€WHOLE€QUESTION€OF€WHETHER€THIS€ADDS€A€BURDEN€INÐ ¨+p$, ÐTERMS€OF€THE€OVERALL€NETTING€BASELINE€THAT€IS€GREATERÏTHAN€THE€BURDEN€TODAY.€€Ìà àà x àAND€I€GUESS,€JOHN€PAUL,€AGAIN,€IT€WOULD€BEÏHELPFUL€„„€EITHER€NOW€OR€IN€THE€WRITTEN€COMMENTS€„„€TOÏGET€A€BETTER€DESCRIPTION€AS€TO€WHY€LOOKING€AT€A€GREATERÏTIME€PERIOD,ASSUMING€THAT€YOU€ADDRESS€THE€OTHER€ISSUESÏWE€JUST€IDENTIFIED,€WHY€THAT€WOULD€CREATE€A€GREATERÏBURDEN€ON€THE€STATE.Ìà àà x àSO€AGAIN,€I€THINK,€IN€SUMMARY,€YOU€HADÏPEOPLE€FROM€INDUSTRY€APPRECIATING€THE€FACT€THAT€THE€FACAÏDID,€IN€FACT€„„€DID€RECOMMEND€AN€INCREASED€BASELINEÏPERIOD€FOR€CYCLICAL€INDUSTRIES.€€THE€AGENCY€IDENTIFIEDÏTEN€YEARS--ACTUALLY,€I€THINK€THAT€WAS€SOMETHING€THATÏWE€CAME€UP€WITH--AND€THEN€IT€HAS€PLACED€THESE€TESTS€ORÏMETHODS€FOR€DETERMINING€THAT€BASELINE€WITHIN€THAT.€Ìà àà x àDAVID,€BASED€ON€YOUR--BASED€ON€WHAT€YOUÏHEARD€YESTERDAY,€DO€YOU€HAVE€ANY€COMMENTS€IN€TERMS€OFÏWHAT€THE€AGENCY€WAS€ATTEMPTING€TO€ACCOMPLISH€HERE,€ANDÏANY€GENERAL€CLARIFICATIONS?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€AS€YOU€MENTIONED,€WHAT€WE€WEREÐ °&x& ÐTRYING€TO€DO€WAS€ACCOMMODATE€THE€CONCERNS€WE'VE€HEARDÏFROM€CYCLIC€INDUSTRIES,€THAT€USING€THE€LAST€TWO€YEARS€ASÏBEING€REPRESENTATIVE€IN€MANY€CASES€WOULD€BEÐ ¨+p$, ÐINAPPROPRIATE,€ESPECIALLY€IF€THERE€WAS€A€DOWNTURN.Ìà àà x àWE€ALSO€FELT€THAT€THE€INFORMATION€BEINGÏREQUESTED€„„€THAT€IS,€OPERATIONAL€LEVEL€PLUS€EMISSIONÏFACTOR€„„€IS€THE€TYPE€OF€INFORMATION€CURRENTLY€REQUIRED,ÏALTHOUGH€IT€MAY€BE€MORE€READILY€AVAILABLE€WITHIN€THEÏLAST€TWO€YEARS€THAN€GOING€BACK€OVER€TEN€YEARS.€€BUT€THEÏTYPE€OF€CALCULATION€ITSELF€IS€THE€TYPE€„„€IS€THE€EXACTÏSAME€CALCULATION€THAT€IS€DONE€TODAY,€ONLY€WITH€AÏDIFFERENT€SET€OF€NUMBERS.€€AND€THERE€MAY€BE€SOMEÏVALIDITY€IN€TERMS€OF€GOING€BACK€TEN€YEARS€AND€THEÏACCURACY€OF€THAT€TYPE€OF€DATA,€BUT€THAT€WOULD€HAVE€TO€BEÏADDRESSED€ON€A€CASE-BY-CASE€BASIS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€Ð à Ðà àà x àANY€ADDITIONAL€COMMENTS,€CLARIFICATIONS,ÏSUGGESTIONS€IN€TERMS€OF€HOW€TO€ADDRESS€THE€ISSUES€THATÏWERE€RAISED€AT€YESTERDAY'S€HEARING,€THE€VALIDITY€OFÏTHOSE€ISSUES,€OR€THE€IMPACTS?€€Ìà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€I€WANT€TO€JUST€PUT€ON€THE€TABLEÐ %Ð$ ÐA€DISCUSSION€I€HAD€WITH€DENNIS€CRUMPLER€THAT€IT€APPEARSÏTHAT--AND€WHAT€WE'RE€TALKING€ABOUT€HERE€IS€DETERMININGÏTHE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€AS€OF€A€SPECIFIC€DATE.€€AND€THEÏFIVE-YEAR€CONTEMPORANEOUS€PERIOD€HAS€NOT€BEEN€CHANGED€INÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHE€REGULATION,€SO€WE'RE€GOING€BACK€FROM€A€„„€YOU€KNOW,ÏTHE€TIME€THE€CONSTRUCTION€WOULD€START,€WE'RE€GOING€BACKÏFIVE€YEARS€AND€THEN€DETERMINING€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS,€WHICHÏTHEN€ADDS€THAT€TEN-YEAR€PERIOD€FROM€THAT€POINT€BACK.€€Ìà àà x àSO€IT€APPEARS€THAT€WHAT€WE€ACTUALLY€ENDED€UPÏWITH€HAS€A€POSSIBILITY€OF€GOING€BACK€FIFTEEN€YEARS€TOÏDETERMINE€AN€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€RATE.€€SO,€YOU€KNOW,€DAVE,ÏWOULD€YOU--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€JOHN?€€JOHN,€YOU€AND€DENNIS€MAYÐ x@  ÐHAVE€JUST€HAVE€UNDERSTOOD€WHAT€YOU€SAID,€BUT€I--ITÏSORT€OF€WHIZZED€RIGHT€„„€WHIZZED€RIGHT€BY€ME€THERE€AS€TOÏHOW€WE€WENT€FROM€TEN€TO€FIFTEEN.€€SO€IF€ONE€OF€YOU€COULDÏJUST€SLOW€THAT€DOWN€A€LITTLE€BIT€MORE,€WE€MIGHT€HAVE€IT,ÏAND€WE€MIGHT€BE€THERE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€MY€QUESTION€IS,€JOHN,€ARE€YOUÐ h0 ÐDESCRIBING€THE€CURRENT€SYSTEM€OR€THE€PROPOSAL?Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€PARDON?Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€NO,€I--THE€QUESTION€IS€INÐ `#(" ÐTERMS€OF€WHAT€YOU'RE€TRYING€TO€DESCRIBE,€IS€IT€WHAT'S€INÏTHE€PROPOSAL€OR€IS€IT€THE€CURRENT€SYSTEM?Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€WE€BELIEVE€THAT'S€WHAT'S€IN€THEÐ X( !( ÐPROPOSAL--Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€OKAY.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€--€IS€A€CONTEMPORANEOUS€PERIODÐ 8 ÐIS€WHAT--THAT'S€WHAT€NETTING'S€ALL€ABOUT.€€REMEMBER,ÏWE'RE€TALKING€ABOUT€NETTING,€AND€CONTEMPORANEOUS€MEANSÏTO€GO€BACK€FIVE€YEARS€FROM€THE€POINT€WHEN€CONSTRUCTIONÏSTARTS€AND€DETERMINE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€AND€THEN€LOOK€ATÏWHEN€THE€INCREASE€IS€GOING€TO€START.€€THAT'S€THEÏCONTEMPORANEOUS€PERIOD.€€Ìà àà x àNOW,€SO€THE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€AS€OF€AÏSPECIFIC€DATE€USED€TO€BE€THE€TWO€YEAR,€YOU€KNOW,€THEÏAVERAGE€OF€THE€TWO€YEARS€PREVIOUS€TO€FIVE€YEARS€AGO.€ÏNOW€THE€TEN-YEAR€LOOK-BACK€OF€WHAT€THE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONSÏARE€GO€FROM€THE€BEGINNING,€WHICH€IS€FIVE€YEARS€AGO.€€SOÏIT€APPEARS€THAT€WHAT€WE€MAY€HAVE€ENDED€UP€WITH€IS€GOINGÏBACK€FROM--FROM€NOW€FIFTEEN€YEARS€FOR€A€POSSIBLEÏDETERMINING€OF€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS,€WHICH€IS€THE€STARTINGÏPOINT€FOR€THE€NETTING€CALCULUS.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.€SOLOMON:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.€TROUT:ó ó€€SO€I'LL€LET€YOU€TALK€WITHÐ `#(" ÐDENNIS.€€DENNIS€UNDERSTANDS€IT,€AND€I€JUST€WAN€TOÏTHROW--Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€LET€ME€JUST„„Ð X( !( Ðà àà x àò òMR.€TROUT:ó 󀀄„€THAT€OUT€ON€THE€TABLE.Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€NO,€NO,€NOW€THAT'S€NOT€THE€TESTÐ ¨+p$, ÐWE'RE€USING,€JOHN.Ìà àà x àMR.€FOTIS:€€NOW€WAIT.€€WHEN€THE€FEDS,€STATESÏAND€LOCALS€AGREE,€THAT'S€THE€TEST€WE'RE€USING.Ð ˆ P Ðà àà x àò òMR.€TROUT:ó ó€€RIGHT.€€RIGHT.€€RIGHT.€€Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€LET€ME€CLARIFY€THE€INTENT.€Ð Ø   ÐTHE€INTENT€WAS€TO€PROVIDE€FOR€A€FINITE€AND€DISCRETEÏTEN-YEAR€PERIOD€LOOKING€BACK€FROM€THE€DATE€OF€THEÏMODIFICATION€PERIOD.€€YOU€COULD€NOT€USE€A€TIME€OUTSIDEÏOF€THAT€TEN€YEARS,€AND€THE€SOURCE€WOULD€HAVE€THEÏDISCRETION€TO€PICK€WITHIN€THAT€TEN€YEARS€ANYÏTWELVE-MONTH€PERIOD.€€THERE'S€NO€INTENT--Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€OKAY,€THAT'S€WHAT€WE€UNDERSTOODÐ p8 ÐTHE€INTENT€WAS.€„„Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€OKAY.Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€„„€IT€MAY€NOT€BE€HOW€IT€CAMEÐ h0 ÐOUT--Ìà àà x àò òMR.€SOLOMON:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.€TROUT:ó 󀀄„€IN€THE€LANGUAGE.Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€SOWHAT€YOU'REÐ %Ð$ ÐSUGGESTING,THAT€THE€AGENCY€HAS€TO€CAREFULLY€LOOK€AT€THEÏLANGUAGE€SO€THAT€IT€DOESN'T€EXCEED€THAT€LIMIT?Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€THAT'S€CORRECT.€€Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.€TROUT:ó ó€€YES.Ð 8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.€RAHER:ó ó€€FINE.РਠÐà àà x àANY€ADDITIONAL--STEVE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.FOTISó ó:€€ò òSTEVEN€FOTIS,€OF€VAN€NESSÐ 0 ø ÐFELDMAN.ó ó€€I€JUST€WANT€TO€FLAG€AN€ISSUE€THAT€WE€WILL€BEÐ Ø   ÐGIVING€WRITTEN€COMMENTS€ON€IN€MORE€DETAIL.€€BUT€IT€HASÏTO€DO€WITH--AND€IT'S€AN€ISSUE€THAT'S€NOT€IN€THE€REFORMÏPACKAGE,€BUT€IT€PERTAINS€TO€LIMITATIONS€ON€NETTING€WHEREÏTHERE€IS€CURRENTLY€A€REQUIREMENT€THAT€IN€ORDER€TO€NETÏOUT€YOU€HAVE€TO€HAVE€COMMON€SOURCE€OR€OWNERSHIP.€€IT'S€AÏCOMMON€OWNERSHIP€AND€OPERATOR€REQUIREMENT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€WE€UNDERSTAND€THE€LOGIC€OF€THAT€AND€HOWÏIT'S€NECESSARY€IN€MANY€CASES,€BUT€THERE€AREÏSITUATIONS--IN€PARTICULAR,€COGENERATION€FACILITIES€„„ÏWHERE€IT€DOES€WORK.€€AND€IT'S€SOMETHING€„„€IT'S€AN€AREAÏTHAT€WE€WOULD€REALLY€LIKE€TO€WORK€WITH€THE€AGENCY€ANDÏSEE€IF€THERE€IS€A€WAY€WHERE€YOU€COULD€GET€NETING--TOÏGET€NETTING€WORK--TO€WORK€IN€A€SITUATION€WHERE€THEREÏIS€AN€ENVIRONMENTAL€BENEFIT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€THAT€WAS€AN€ISSUE€THAT€WASÐ °&x& ÐRAISED€VERY--I€GUESS€WE€SLIGHTLY€TOUCHED€ON€AT€SOME€OFÏTHE€OTHER€MEETINGS,€AND€I€THINK€THE€BIGGEST€ISSUES€CAMEÏFROM€OECA€IN€TERMS€OF€ENFORCEABILITY€RELATIVE€TO€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐDECREASES€AT€THE€SOURCE€THAT€WAS€NOT€ACTUALLY€RECEIVINGÏTHE€PERMIT.€€Ìà àà x àSO€IF€YOU€COULD€PROVIDE€ANY€SUGGESTIONS€ASÏTO€HOW€THAT€CAN€BE€DONE€AND€PROVIDE€THE€ENFORCEABILITYÏTHAT€WOULD€BE€NEEDED€TO€ENSURE€THAT€THE€DECREASES€OCCUR,ÏAND€THEY'RE€PERMITTED,€THAT€WOULD€BE€VERY€HELPFUL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.FOTISó ó:€€I€WOULD€LIKE€TO€WORK€WITH€YOU,Ð (ð  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àTHE€SECOND€COMMENT€RELATES€AGAIN€TO€THINKINGÏABOUT€THE€CONNECTION€BETWEEN€THIS€PROPOSAL€AND€OTHERÏCOMPONENTS,€AND€I€THINK€THAT€THIS€PROPOSAL€HAS€TO€BEÏEVALUATED€IN€CONJUNCTION€WITH€THE€ACTUAL-TO-FUTUREÏACTUALS€APPROACH€BECAUSE€THE€PINCH,€IF€THERE€IS€ONE,ÏWITH€RESPECT€TO€SOURCES€AND€THE€MISUSE€OF€RESOURCES,€IFÏTHERE€IS€ONE,€HAS€TO€DO€WITH€THOSE€CIRCUMSTANCES€WHEREÏTHE€CALCULATION€RULES€RESULT€IN€WHAT€IS€VIEWED€AS€ANÏARTIFICIAL€DIFFERENCE€BETWEEN€THE€BASELINE€AND€THEÏPROJECTED€FUTURE€EMISSIONS.€€Ìà àà x àAND€IF€THE--AND,€OBVIOUSLY,€THAT€PINCH€CANÏBE€REDUCED€BY€PUSHING€ON€THE€BEFORE€OR€PUSHING€ON€THEÏAFTER,€AND€THIS€PROPOSAL€DOES€BOTH.€€AND€I€THINK€IT'SÏIMPORTANT€TO€REFLECT€THAT€IT€BOTH€ALLOWS€THE€USE€OFÏHIGHER€BEFORE€EMISSIONS€AS€WELL€AS€LOWER€AFTERÏEMISSIONS,€AND€EVALUATE€THESE€TWO€THINGS€JOINTLY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUTó ó:€€I'D€LIKE€TO€START€OUT€WITH€ONEÐ X( !( ÐVERY€POSITIVE.€€WE'RE€VERY€PLEASED€THAT€EPA€DID€WRITE€INÏON€THE€NONATTAINMENT€SIDE€NOT€GOING€BACK€BEFORE€NOVEMBERÐ ¨+p$, ÐOF€1990.€€SO€THAT'S,€I€THINK,€A€GOOD€RECOGNITION€OF€THEÏREAL€PROBLEMS€THAT€THAT€CAUSES€US.Ìà àà x àWE,€AS€STAPPA/ALAPCO,€AN€ASSOCIATION€OF€MANYÏSTATE€AND€LOCAL€AGENCIES,€OBVIOUSLY,€HAVE€A€LOT€OFÏEXPERIENCE€FROM€MANY€AGENCIES,€AND€SOMETIMES€IT'SÏDIFFICULT€FOR€US€TO€TRY€TO€BALANCE€THE€THOUGHTS€OF€THEÏDIFFERENT€AGENCIES.€€ONE€OF€THE€THINGS€THAT€WE'REÏDISCUSSING€AND€WE€HAVE€TO€RESOLVE€FOR€OUR€FINAL€WRITTENÏCOMMENTS--AND€PARTICULARLY€THE€CALIFORNIA€AGENCIES€AREÏLOOKING€(SIC)€„„€THAT€ON€AN€INDIVIDUAL€EMISSIONS€UNIT,€AÏPOTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST€AS€BEING€A€FAIR€WAY€TOÏRESOLVE€THE€NETTING€ISSUE€THAT--YOU€KNOW,€THE€ACTUALÏVERSUS€POTENTIAL€ISSUE.€€Ìà àà x àSO€WE'RE€DISCUSSING€THAT€WITHIN€THEÏASSOCIATIONS€AND€WILL€COME€OUT€WITHIN€OUR€WRITTENÏCOMMENTS€WITH€A€RECOMMENDATION,€BUT€WE€WANTED€PEOPLE€TOÏKNOW€THAT'S€ONE€OF€THE€THINGS€THAT€WE€ARE€LOOKING€AT€ONÏA€SINGLE€EMISSIONS€UNIT€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TOÏRESOLVE€THIS€ISSUE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€JOHN,€I€APPRECIATE€SORTÐ °&x& ÐOF€THE€FOREWARNING€ON€THAT,€AND€MAYBE€IF€ANY€OF€THEÏOTHER€INDIVIDUAL€MEMBERS€HAVE€QUESTIONS€ABOUT€THAT,€THEYÏCAN€TALK€TO€YOU€OR€JOHNPAUL€OR€BILL€AND€GET€A€LITTLEÐ ¨+p$, ÐMORE€INFORMATION€AND€INPUT€BACK€TO€YOU€ON€THAT.€Ìà àà x àWHO€ELSE€WAS€HERE?€€JOHN?€€Ìà àà x àICLAL?Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€HI,€THIS€IS€ICLAL€ATAY,€FROM€NEWÐ 0 ø ÐJERSEY€DEP.€€Ìà àà x àI€WOULD€LIKE€TO€MAKE€TWO€POINTS.€€I€AGREEÏWITH€DAVID€THAT€THIS€NETTING€BASELINE€ISSUE€NEEDS€TO€BEÏTIED€IN€WITH€ACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUAL€APPLICABILITYÏTESTS.€€I€WOULD€LIKE€TO€START€MY€COMMENT€BY€GIVING€YOUÏAN€EXAMPLE.€€Ìà àà x àLET'S€TAKE€A€SOURCE,€A€FACILITY€THAT'SÏALLOWED€TO€EMIT€250€TONS€PER€YEAR€OF€NITROGEN€OXIDESÏEMISSIONS,€AND€THEY€ARE€ALLOWED€TO€EMIT€AT€8,760€HOURSÏPER€YEAR,€AND€THERE€ARE€NO€OPERATING€RESTRICTIONS€ONÏTHEIR€EQUIPMENT.€€THEY'RE€ALLOWED€TO€BURN€GAS€AND€COAL.€ÏLET'S€SAY€THIS€IS€A€BOILER.€€AND,€TRADITIONALLY,€LET'SÏSAY€IN€THE€LAST€TEN€YEARS,€THIS€FACILITY€HAS€ALWAYSÏBURNED€GAS,€AND€THEY€HAVE€OPERATED€2,000€HOURS€PER€YEAR,ÏSO€THEY€HAVE€EMITTED€ABOUT€50€TONS€PER€YEAR.Ìà àà x àTHEY€DECIDE€THIS€YEAR€THAT€THEY€WANT€TO€BURNÏCOAL€NOW.€€THEIR€PERMIT€ALLOWS€THAT,€AND€THEY€WANT€TOÏOPERATE€8,760€HOURS€PER€YEAR,€SO€THEY€WILL€EMIT€ATÏ250TONS€PER€YEAR.€€THIS€WILL€NOT€SUBJECT€THEM€TO€NEWÐ ¨+p$, ÐSOURCE€REVIEW€BECAUSE€IT'S€PERFECTLY€ALLOWED€IN€THEIRÏPERMIT.€€EVEN€THOUGH€THEY€HAVE€A€SIGNIFICANT€EMISSIONÏINCREASE,€THEY€WILL€NOT€BE€SUBJECT€TO€REVIEW.Ìà àà x àHAVING€GIVEN€THAT€EXAMPLE,€I€WOULD€LIKE€TOÏTELL€YOU€AN€APPLICABILITY€TEST€THAT€WE€USE€IN€NEWÏJERSEY,€AND€IT'S€IN€OUR€SIP€FOR€NONATTAINMENT€AREAS.€€WEÏUSE€A€TEST€OF€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€UNLESS€FOR€NETTINGÏPURPOSES€DECREASES€IN€THE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€IN€THEÏCONTEMPORANEOUS€PERIOD.€€THE€REASON€WE€DO€THAT€IS€THEÏPOTENTIAL€EMISSION€RATE€IS€A€GIVEN€ALLOWABLE€EMISSIONÏRATE€TO€A€FACILITY.€€AS€IN€THE€EXAMPLE€I€HAVE€GIVEN€TOÏYOU,€EVEN€THOUGH€THEY€MAY€OPERATE€BELOW€THAT,€AT€ANY€ONEÏTIME€WITHIN€THE€RESTRICTIONS€OF€THEIR€PERMIT€THEY€CAN€GOÏUP€TO€THEIR€POTENTIAL.Ì€€à àà x àAND€FUTURE€POTENTIAL€ISTHIS€IS€WHAT€YOUÐ h0 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àIF€THEY€HAVE€INSTALLED€SCR€TECHNOLOGY€INÏANOTHER€BOILER€AT€THEIR€FACILITY,€AND€THEY€HAVEÏDECREASED€THEIR€EMISSIONS€BY€50€TONS€OF€NOòòXóó,€THEN€YOUÐ à ÐCAN€GIVE€THEM€CREDIT€FOR€THE€CHANGE.€€THEN€YOU--THISÏIS€A€TEST.€€THIS€IS€FAIR,€AND€IT'S€EASILY€IMPLEMENTABLE.Ìà àà x àTHE€WAY€OF€DOING€HERE,€GOING€BACK€TEN€YEARSÏAND€TRYING€TO€FIND€OUT€WHAT€THEIR€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€WILLÏBE,€IT'S€GOING€TO€BE€A€MIND-BOGGLING€THING.€€WHAT€IS€THEÏCRITERIA€HOW€THEY€SHOULD€DOCUMENT€THEIR€EMISSIONS?€€WEÏHAVE€SEEN€IN€COMMENTS€YESTERDAY€THE€PRODUCTION€ACTIVITYÏLEVEL€CAN€BE€SHOWN€IN€MANY€DIFFERENT€WAYS€THAT€WILL€GIVEÏYOU€DIFFERENT€VALUES€IN€WHAT€THE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€ARE.€ÏAND€IT€REALLY€IS€INEQUITABLE€BETWEEN€INDUSTRIES€BECAUSEÐ ¨+p$, ÐSOME€INDUSTRY€MAY€COME€AND€MIGHT€FIND€A€WAY€OFÏCALCULATING€THEIR€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€THAT€SOME€OTHERÏINDUSTRY€MAY€HAVE€„„€MAY€NOT€HAVE€FIGURED€IT€OUT€INÏTHEIR€FAVOR.€€Ìà àà x àPOTENTIAL€LIMIT€IS€A€FAIR€WAY€OF€DOING€IT.€ÏTHAT'S€THEIR€ALLOWABLE.€€THAT'S€WHAT€„„€AT€THE€LEVEL€WEÏHAVE€EVALUATED€THEM€AND€TOLD€THEM€IT'S€OKAY€FOR€THEM€TOÏEMIT€UP€TO€THAT€LEVEL.Ìà àà x àTHE€FUTURE€ACTUAL€AS€WELL,€YOU€TOLD€THEM€YOUÏCAN€EMIT€UP€TO€250€TONS,€BUT€YOU€TELL€ME€YOU'RE€GOING€TOÏBE€ONLY€AT€50,€SO€I'M€EXEMPTING€YOU.€€NOW€FOR€FIVE€YEARSÏYOU'RE€GOING€TO€LOOK€AT€WHAT€ARE€YOU€DOING,€AND€DO€YOUÏREALLY--ARE€YOU€REALLY€BELOW€THAT€OR€ABOVE€THAT?€€IFÏYOU'RE€ABOVE€THAT,€WHAT€HAPPENS€TO€YOU?€€¼à àà x àIT€REALLY€DOESN'T€GIVE€THE€PUBLIC€THEÏASSURANCE€OF,€OH,€WHAT'S€GOING€TO€HAPPEN€TO€ME€NOW?€ÏTHIS€FACILITY€IS€BUILDING€HERE.€€THEY'RE€ALLOWED€TO€EMITÏUP€TO€250€TONS,€BUT€THEY'RE€SAYING€THEY€WILL€ONLY€EMITÏ50.€€SO€WHY€AREN'T€THEY€COMMITTING€TO€50?€€IT€WILL€PUTÏUS€IN€A€REALLY€DIFFICULT€SITUATION€OF€GOING€TO€PUBLICÏAND€PERMITTING€THESE€FACILITIES.€€Ìà àà x àIT€WILL€BE€VERY€DIFFICULT€TO€IMPLEMENTÏACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUAL.€€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL,€LESSÐ ¨+p$, ÐDECREASES€IN€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€AS€CREDIT,€WILL€BE€A€FAIRÏAND€IMPLEMENTABLE€WAY€OF€DOING€THIS.€€Ìà àà x àTHANK€YOU.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€ò òKAREN?Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àó óMS.MALKINò ò:€€KAREN€MALKINó ó,€NATIONAL€PARKÐ Ø   ÐSERVICE.€€Ìà àà x àI'D€JUST€LIKE€TO€SUPPORT€ICLAL'S€COMMENTS€ASÏWELL€AS€DAVID'S,€AND€JUST€POINT€OUT€THAT,€AGAIN,€AS€INÏTHE€FIRST€ISSUE€OF€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXEMPTION,€WE'REÏTALKING€ABOUT€WAYS€TO€GET€OUT€OF€THE€FULL€PSD€REVIEW.€ÏAND,€OF€COURSE,€EVEN€THOUGH€THE€òòCLEAN€AIR€ACTóó€HASÐ È ÐPROVIDED€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€WITH€AN€AFFIRMATIVEÏRESPONSIBILITY,€AS€WELL€AS€OUR€OWN€ORGANIC€ACT€FOR€THEÏNATIONAL€PARK€SERVICE€„„€WE€HAVE€RESPONSIBILITIES€OVERÏTHAT€AS€WELL€„„€WE'RE€NOT,€AS€A€CONCEPT,€OPPOSED€TO,€YOUÏKNOW,€GETTING€OUT€OF€WORK.€€WE'RE€CERTAINLY€OVERBURDENEDÏAND€VERY€LIMITED€IN€OUR€STAFF.€€IT'S€JUST€A€MATTER€OFÏHOW€IT'S€DONE.€€Ìà àà x àAND€I€SUPPORT€THE€CONCERNS€THAT€HAVE€BEENÏRAISED€SO€FAR.€€I€ALSO€THINK€THAT€THE€TEN€YEARSÏLOOK-BACK€PRESENTS€A€PROBLEM.€€IT'S€JUST€THE€SAME€ISSUEÏTHAT€PEOPLE€WERE€TALKING€ABOUT€AND€WE€TALKED€ABOUT€INÏTHE€CLEAN€UNIT.€€WE'VE€HAD€„„€TECHNOLOGY€CAN€ADVANCEÐ ¨+p$, ÐTREMENDOUSLY€IN€TEN€YEARS.€€I€KNOW€WE€DID€A€LITTLE€STUDYÏON€THAT€WITH€NOòòXóó,€AND€IT€WAS€JUST€REALLY€AMAZING€THEРਠÐDIFFERENCE€IN€BACT€OVER€THE€PAST€TEN€YEARS€FOR€NOòòXóó.€€SOÐ ˆ P ÐWHEN€YOU'RE€LOOKING€BACK€TEN€YEARS,€IT€REALLY€IS€AÏCONCERN€IF€WE'RE€REALLY€SERVING€THE€ENVIRONMENT.€€IÏTHINK€FIVE€YEARS€IS€MORE€APPROPRIATE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY.€€ARE€THERE€ANY€OTHERÐ (ð  ÐCOMMENTS€ON€THE€NETTING€BASELINE€ISSUE?€€Ìà àà x àBEFORE€WE€TRY€TO€TAKE€A€BREAK--WE€STARTEDÏA€LITTLE€LATE,€SO€WE'LL€JUST€GO€A€LITTLE€LONGER€„„€LET'SÏMOVE€ON€TO€THE€NEXT€ISSUE,€WHICH€WAS€THE€ISSUE€OF€PAL'S.€ÏI'LL€TRY€TO€GIVE€YOU€A€BRIEF€SUMMARY€AND€THEN€ASK€DAVIDÏTO€JUST€GIVE€US€AN€ANALYSIS€OF€WHAT€THE€AGENCY€WASÏATTEMPTING€TO€ADDRESS€HERE.Ìà àà x àFIRST,€THERE€WAS€GENERAL€SUPPORT,€I€THINK,ÏFOR€THE€CONCEPT€OF€PAL'S.€€A€NUMBER€OF€SOURCES€HAVEÏATTEMPTED€TO€DEVELOP€PAL'S.€€STATES€ARE€HAVING€MOREÏEXPERIENCE€WITH€THEM.€€THE€SOURCES€ARE€HAVING€MOREÏEXPERIENCE€WITH€THEM.€€BUT€THE€FOLLOWING€WERE€COMMENTSÏIN€TERMS€OF€HOW€THAT€PAL€CONCEPT€WAS€PRESENTED€IN€THEÏOVERALL€EPA€PACKAGE.Ìà àà x àFIRST€OF€ALL,€THERE'S€AN€INDICATION€THAT€THEÏPAL€WOULD€BE€SUBJECT€TO€PERIODIC€OPENING€AND€POSSIBLEÐ ¨+p$, ÐDOWNWARD€ADJUSTMENT,€AND€THERE€WAS€THE€COMMENT€THAT€THISÏREALLY,€IN€EFFECT,€CONFUSES€A€PAL€WITH€THE€CONCEPT€OFÏNETTING:€€THAT€THE€PAL€IS€REALLY€A€PREAPPROVAL€OF€AÏLIMIT,€AND€IT'S€NOT€A€QUESTION€OF€THEN€REASSESSING€ITÏAND€REOPENING€IT.€€THERE€WAS€THE€COMMENT€THAT€IF€YOU€GOÏTHROUGH€THIS€ENTIRE€PROCESS€AND€GET€YOURSELF€A€PAL€ANDÏKNOW€THAT€IT'S€JUST€GOING€TO€BE€REOPENED€CONSTANTLY,ÏTHAT€IT€WILL€NOT€ACTUALLY€BE€USED€BY€INDUSTRY.Ìà àà x àSECOND,€THAT€IN€A€LIMITED€NUMBER€OF€CASESÏTHE€PAL€MAYBE€SHOULD€BE€SET€AT€ALLOWABLES€AND€NOTÏACTUALS;€FOR€INSTANCE,€IF€THE€SOURCE€HAS€GONE€THROUGH€AÏLAER€OR€OFFSET€REVIEW€OR€NETTED€OUT€WITH€ENFORCEABLEÏLIMITS€AFTER€1990€OR€A€PSD€PERMIT€HAD€BEEN€ISSUED€AFTERÏ1990.Ìà àà x àTHIRD€IS€THAT€THERE€WERE€SOME€SUGGESTIONSÏTHAT€THE€PAL€AUTHORITY€ACTUALLY€SHOULD€BE€CLARIFIED€ANDÏTHAT€THE€FINAL€RULE€SHOULD€NOT€HAVE€IT€AS€AN€OPTION,€ASÏWE€HEARD€ABOUT€EARLIER,€BUT€THE€STATES€SHOULD€SEE€IT€ASÏA€REQUIRED€PROVISION€OR€PORTION€OF€A€FEDERAL€NEW€SOURCEÏREVIEW€PROGRAM€AND€THAT€EVEN€THAT€STATES€SHOULD€BEÏENCOURAGED€TO€ADOPT€PAL'S€IN€THEIR€MINOR€SOURCE€PROGRAM.Ìà àà x àIN€TERMS€OF€WHAT€HAPPENS€IF€YOU€ATTEMPT€TOÏOR€AT€SOME€POINT€IN€TIME€IN€THE€FUTURE€DO€TERMINATE€YOURÐ ¨+p$, ÐPAL,€THERE€WAS€A€SUGGESTION€THAT€WE€SHOULD€NOT€HAVEÏSOURCES€MOVING€IN€AND€OUT€OF€PAL'S.€€WE€SHOULD€NOT€HAVEÏA€SELF-SELECTION€PROCESS€WHERE€ONLY€THE€SOURCES€THATÏBENEFIT€FROM€A€PAL€OBTAIN€A€PAL.€€SO€IF€A€PAL€ISÏTERMINATED€IN€THE€FUTURE,€THAT€A€BACT€AND€LAER€ANALYSISÏWOULD€BE€APPLIED€RETROSPECTIVELY€TO€ANY€ACTIONS€THAT€HADÏPREVIOUSLY€BEEN€TAKEN€UNDER€THE€PAL.Ìà àà x àAND,€FINALLY,€THAT€THERE€WAS€A€QUESTION€ASÏTO€WHETHER€THE€AGENCY€SHOULDN'T€REQUIRE€SOME€TYPE€OFÏANALYTICAL€PROCESS€OR€NOTICE€IF€WITHIN€THE€PAL€THERE€AREÏACTUALLY€SHIFTING,€MAJOR€SHIFTING,€OF€OPERATIONS€WITHINÏA€FACILITY€THAT€COULD€BE€CONSIDERED€TO€ACTUALLY€CREATEÏOR€CAUSE€A€POTENTIAL€LOCAL€ADVERSE€AIR€IMPACT,€ALTHOUGHÏTHE€TOTAL€EMISSIONS€WOULD€STAY€BELOW€THE€PAL€LIMIT.Ìà àà x àTHOSE€WERE€THE€GENERAL€COMMENTS€THAT€WE€WEREÏABLE€TO€PULL€OUT€OF€THE€TESTIMONY€YESTERDAY.€€AS€I€SAID,ÏTHE€GENERAL€CONCEPT€IS€THAT€PAL'S€ARE€USEFUL.€€THEÏQUESTION€WAS€WHETHER€THEY€WERE€NOW€LIMITED€BY€THE€AGENCYÏIN€THE€PROPOSAL€IN€A€WAY€THAT€MAKES€THEM€LESS€BENEFICIALÏTHAN€SOME€STATES€AND€SOURCES€HAVE€FOUND€THEM€TO€BE€INÏTHEIR€DEVELOPMENT.€€Ìà àà x àTHERE€WAS€ALSO€ONE€OTHER€QUESTION€THAT'SÏSIMILAR,€OR€STATEMENT,€SIMILAR€TO€THE€ONE€LYDIA€ISSUED;Ð ¨+p$, ÐAND€THAT€IS,€THAT€PALS€CAN€BE€AND€ARE€BEING€DEVELOPEDÏAND€NEGOTIATED€TODAY€AND€THAT€THE€AGENCY€SHOULD€CLARIFYÏTHAT€THAT€AUTHORITY€EXISTS€TODAY€AND€DOES€NOT,€UNDER€THEÏLANGUAGE€IN€THE€PACKAGE,€SUGGEST€THAT€YOU€COULD€ONLYÏDEVELOP€A€PAL€ONCE€THE€SIP€HAS€BEEN€AMENDED.Ìà àà x àDAVID,€DO€YOU€HAVE€ANY€COMMENTS€ON€THE€PALÏCONCEPT?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€AS€YOU€INDICATED,€WE€AREРИ  ÐIMPLEMENTING€PAL'S€TODAY.€€HOWEVER,€WE€ARE,€TO€SOMEÏEXTENT,€LIMITED€IN€OUR€ABILITY€TO€IMPLEMENT€PAL'S€WITHINÏTHE€CONSTRAINTS€OF€THE€EXISTING€REGULATIONS;€FORÏEXAMPLE,€THE€FIVE-YEAR€CONTEMPORANEOUS€PERIOD.€€MANY€OFÏTHE€PAL'S€WE€SEE€HAVE€A€LIMITED€LIFE.€€THE€TWO-YEARÏACTUAL€EMISSION€BASELINE€IS€SOMETHING€THAT€WE'REÏADHERING€TO€RIGHT€NOW€IN€PAL'S,€AND€WHAT€WE€TRIED€TO€DOÏIN€THE€PACKAGE€WAS€TO€EXPAND€AND€ACTUALLY€BRING€MOREÏFLEXIBILITY€TO€PAL'S.€€Ìà àà x àAND€YOU€PROBABLY€ALL€NOTICED€THAT€THERE€AREÏQUITE€A€FEW€QUESTIONS€THAT€WE€RAISE€WITHIN€THE€CONTEXTÏOF€THE€PAL€APPROACH,€SOME€OF€THOSE€QUESTIONS€SPEAKING€TOÏTHE€ISSUES€THAT€WERE€RAISED.€€FOR€EXAMPLE,€SHOULD€PAL'SÏHAVE€A€LIMITED€LIFE?€€DOES€IT€MAKE€SENSE€TO€ISSUE€A€PALÏTHAT€GOES€ON€òòAD€INFINITUMóó,€OR€IS€THERE€A€NEED€AFTER€AÐ ¨+p$, ÐCERTAIN€NUMBER€OF€YEARS€TO€REEVALUATE€THE€BASIS€OF€THEÏPAL€BASED€ON€CERTAIN€CHANGES.€€FOR€EXAMPLE,€IN€AÏNONATTAINMENT€AREA€RACT€REQUIREMENTS€WOULD€REDUCEÏEMISSIONS€AT€THE€SOURCE.€€IF€THOSE€EMISSIONS€ARE€GIVENÏOVER€TO€NEW€UNITS€UNDER€A€PAL,€HAS€THE€AREA€REALLY€SEENÏTHE€TYPE€OF€REDUCTIONS€THAT€IT€EXPECTED€UNDER€THEÏAPPLICATION€OF€RACT?Ìà àà x àSO€THE€QUESTIONS€WE'RE€HEARING,€I€THINK,€AREÏTHE€KIND€OF€QUESTIONS€THAT€WE'VE€RAISED,€AND€WE'D€REALLYÏLIKE€TO€TURN€IT€OVER€TO€THE€GROUP€IN€TERMS€OF€YOURÏTHINKING€ON€THOSE€ISSUES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHERó ó:€€OKAY,€MIKE?Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.€BARR:ó ó€€WE€CERTAINLY€DO€AGREE€THAT€THEÐ à ÐPAL€CONCEPT€FITS€WELL€WITH€THE€OBJECTIVES€OF€THEÏSUBCOMMITTEE€AND€ESPECIALLY€IN€PROVIDING€FOR€CERTAINTY,ÏMORE€PREDICTABILITY€FOR€EVERYBODY.€€FROM€A€MANUFACTURINGÏPOINT€OF€VIEW€„„€THE€ABILITY€TO€HANDLE€NEW€MARKETS,€NEWÏPRODUCTS,€NEW€PROCESSES€„„€PAL'S€SEEM€IDEALLY€SUITED€FORÏTHAT€PURPOSE€AND€REDUCING€COST€AND€DELAY€FOR€THOSEÏINDUSTRIES€AND€STATES€THAT€WANT€TO€SERIOUSLY€EXPLORE€THEÏCONCEPT.Ìà àà x àTHE€JULY€PROPOSAL,€IN€FACT,€WE€THINK€HAS€AÏLOT€OF€MERIT,€BUT€IT€DOES€NEED€SOME€MORE€FLEXIBILITY.€Ð ¨+p$, ÐIT€DOES€MAINTAIN€THE€CURRENT€LEVEL€OF€PROTECTION,€ANDÏMAYBE€TOO€WELL.€€IT€SHOULD€ALLOW€THE€STATE€TO€SET€THEÏBASELINE€AT€THE€LEVEL€REQUIRED€BY€ALL€THE€CURRENTÏREGULATIONS€AND€REQUIREMENTS€AS€LONG€AS€THE€SOURCEÏREMAINS€SUBJECT€TO€PAL€ADJUSTMENT€AS€NEW€RULES€AREÏADOPTED.€€Ìà àà x àTHAT'S€A€VERY€SIMPLE€APPROACH€THAT€WOULD€BEÏVERY€PROTECTIVE€FOR€EVERYBODY€AND€WOULD€AMPLY€PROTECTÏTHE€PLAN,€THE€STATE,€THE€INDUSTRY,€IF€THE€INDUSTRY€CHOSEÏTO€HAVE€THAT€TYPE€OF--TO€SUBJECT€ITSELF€TO€THAT€TYPEÏOF€CHANGE.Ìà àà x àTHE€PROPOSAL€SHOULD€ALSO€ALLOW€A€BASELINE€OFÏMORE€REPRESENTATIVE€ACTUALS.€€WE€TALKED€ABOUT€THATÏBEFORE.€€AND€SETTING€A€BASELINE€OF€MORE€REPRESENTATIVEÏACTUALS€PLANT-WIDE€AS€IF€THE€ENTIRE€PLANT€WOULD€BEÏUNDERGOING€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW,€SUBJECT€TO€THE€GENERALÏBASELINE€RULE--EITHER€THE€CURRENT€ONE€OR,€PREFERABLY,ÏTHE€NEW€ONE--WOULD€BE€ANOTHER€WAY€TO€SET€THE€LEVEL€OFÏTHE€PAL.Ìà àà x àTHE€SOURCE€UNDER€THOSE€CIRCUMSTANCES,€IÏTHINK,€WOULD€STILL€BE€SUBJECT€TO€NEW€RULES,€BUT€ITÏSHOULD€DO€SOME€EVALUATION€FIRST€TO€SEE€IF€IT'S€ALREADYÏFULFILLING€OR€PARTLY€COMPLYING€WITH€ANY€NEW€RULES€ANDÐ ¨+p$, ÐMAYBE€HAS€EARNED--BY€TAKING€THAT€TYPE€OF€A€SOURCEWIDE,ÏMORE€REPRESENTATIVE€ACTUAL€BASELINE,€MAYBE€A€SOURCE€HASÏEARNED€SOME€RELIEF€FOR€THE€PAL€TERM,€AND€THERE€SHOULD€BEÏSOME€DEFERRAL€OF€THE€REQUIREMENTS€UNTIL€THE€PAL€ISÏRENEWED.Ìà àà x àIF€THE€PAL€LEVEL,€ON€THE€OTHER€HAND,€IS€SETÏAT€RECENT€BACT€OR€LAER€OR€AT€SOME€LEVEL€OF€SIGNIFICANTÏREDUCTION,€ANYBODY€WHO€HAS€THAT€TYPE€OF€A€PAL,€I€THINK,ÏHAS€EARNED€A€GREAT€DEAL€OF€TIME€IN€PROTECTING€AGAINSTÏNEW€RULES€AND€REGULATIONS.€€THE€PROPOSED€BASELINES€INÏTHE€JULY€PROPOSAL€ARE,€THEREFORE,€TOO€RESTRICTIVE€ANDÏARE€LIKELY€TO€NEEDLESSLY€LIMIT€PALS,€ESPECIALLY€THOSE€INÏATTAINMENT€AREAS.€€Ìà àà x àSTATES€LIKE€OREGON,€CALIFORNIA,€AND€TEXASÏHAVE€DESIGNED€THEIR€OWN€RESPONSIBLE€PAL€PROGRAMS€WHICHÏEPA€SHOULD€DEFINITELY€LISTEN€TO€AND€ACCOMMODATE.€€THOSEÏSTATES€THINK€PAL'S€ARE€PROTECTIVE€AND€WORTHWHILE€BASEDÏON€REAL-WORLD€EXPERIENCE.€€Ìà àà x àYOU€SHOULD€ALLOW€STATES,€ALSO,€TO€REVIEW€ANDÏADJUST€PAL€PROVISIONS€OVER€TIME.€€DON'T€LEAVE€THOSEÏTYPES€OF€ADJUSTMENTS€TOTALLY€OPEN-ENDED€BECAUSE€THEREÏREALLY€WOULD€BE€FAR€TOO€MUCH€RISK€FOR€ANYBODY€TOÏPARTICIPATE€IN€THE€PROGRAM.€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àSTANDARDS€LIKE€THE€APPROPRIATENESS€OF€THEÏLEVELS€ON€REVIEW€ARE€FAR€TOO€VAGUE.€€ASSESSING€"AIRÏQUALITY€CHANGES"€MIGHT€ALSO€BE€TOO€VAGUE.€€THESEÏCONCERNS€CAN€AND€SHOULD€BE€ADDRESSED€UP€FRONT€IN€THE€PALÏPERMIT€WITH€APPROPRIATE€RANGES€OF€LIMITS€RIGHT€UP€FRONT.€ÏTHAT'S€PART€OF€A€GOOD,€WELL-DESIGNED€PAL€PROGRAM€AND€AÏWELL-DESIGNED€PAL€PERMIT.€€ALL€OF€THIS€SHOULD€BEÏREVIEWED€THOROUGHLY€BY€THE€PUBLIC€AND€INDUSTRY€WHEN€AÏPAL€PROGRAM€IS€SET€UP€AT€A€STATE€LEVEL€AND,€IFÏNECESSARY,€WHEN€INDIVIDUAL€PAL€PERMITS€ARE€ISSUED€ANDÏRENEWED.Ìà àà x àAS€EPA€HAS€RECOGNIZED,€WE€THINK€PAL'S€AREÏEXCITING.€€THEY'RE€AN€INNOVATIVE€OPTION.€€WE'VE€ENDORSEDÏTHEM€THROUGHOUT€THE€ENTIRE€PROCESS.€€STATES€ANDÏCOMPANIES€ARE€EXPERIMENTING.€€EPA€IS€ALLOWING€SOMEÏFLEXIBILITY.€€LET'S€EXPAND€THAT€FLEXIBILITY,€DO€MOREÏEXPERIMENTS,€AND€GET€MORE€OF€THE€BENEFITS.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€€CAN€I€JUST€ASK€ONE€QUESTION?€Ð `#(" ÐMIKE,€WHAT€DO€YOU€MEAN€BY€"MORE€REPRESENTATIVE€ACTUALS"?Ìà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€€THE€SAME€THING€AS€THE€BASELINEÐ °&x& ÐPROPOSAL€IS€TALKING€ABOUT,€YOU€KNOW.€€THE€CURRENTÏBASELINE€--Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó 󀀄„€IS€MORE€REPRESENTATIVE€-„Ð 8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð ਠÐà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€--€WITHIN€SOME€TIME€PERIOD.€Ð ˆ P ÐACTUALLY,€I€DON'T€THINK€THERE€IS€A€LIMIT€ON€FIVE€YEARS,ÏAS€I€READ€THE€CURRENT€REGULATIONS,€BUT,€OBVIOUSLY,ÏTHERE'S€A€LOT€OF€DIFFERENT€READINGS.€€WE'VE€BEEN€TALKINGÏIN€THIS€--€THE€JULY€PROPOSAL€INCLUDES€THE€HIGHEST€TWELVEÏMONTHS€OUT€OF€TEN€YEARS.€€YESTERDAY€AT€THE€PUBLICÏHEARING,€I€THINK€IT€WAS€THE€REPRESENTATIVE€OF€CHRYSLERÏWHO€SAID€FROM€AN€OPERATING€PERSPECTIVE€THEY€WOULD€FEELÏMORE€COMFORTABLE,€AND€IT€WOULD€BE€MORE€MANAGEABLE,€IF€ITÏWAS€THE€HIGHEST€TWELVE€MONTHS€OF€EMISSIONS€DURING€AÏTEN-YEAR€PERIOD.€€THAT€WAS€MORE€REPRESENTATIVE.€€AND€SOÏTHAT'S€SORT€OF€A€COMBINATION€OF€THE€CURRENT€TEST€AND€THEÏPROPOSED€TEST.€Ìà àà x àMAYBE€ALL€THOSE€THINGS€SHOULD€BE€ALLOWEDÏTO--€AS€STATE€OPTIONS.€€BUT€WHATEVER€OPTIONS€AREÏAVAILABLE€FOR€UNIT-BY-UNIT€OR€SOURCE-BY-SOURCE€NEWÏSOURCE€REVIEW€FOR€SELECTING€THE€BASELINE€SHOULD€ALSO€BEÏAVAILABLE€TO€STATES€WHEN€THEY€SELECTED€THIS€LINE€OF€PALÏPROGRAM.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€THANKS.€Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BERNIE€PAUL?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.BERNIE€PAUL:ó ó€€THIS€IS€BERNIE€PAUL,€FROMÐ 8 ÐELI€LILLY.€€Ìà àà x àI'D€LIKE€TO€ECHO€BOTH€MIKE'S€SUPPORT€ANDÏCONCERNS€ABOUT€THE€PAL€PROGRAM.€€I'D€LIKE€TO€RAISE€AÏCOUPLE€OF€QUESTIONS€ABOUT€HOW€IT€MIGHT€WORK.€€FIRST€OFÏALL,€DOES€THE€PAL€HAVE€TO€BE€A€PLANTWIDE€APPLICABLEÏLIMIT?€€CAN€A€SOURCE€HAVE€THIS€TYPE€OF€EMISSION€CAPÏAPPLY€ONLY€TO€A€SPECIFIC€AREA€OF€A€PLANT€SITE?€€IT€MAYÏBE€EASIER€FOR€A€COMPANY€TO€MANAGE€ITS€OPERATIONS€FOR€AÏCERTAIN€AREA€AND€NOT€WANT€TO€INTERMINGLE€DIFFERENT€TYPESÏOF€OPERATIONS€WITHIN€THAT€SAME€SOURCE.Ìà àà x àANOTHER€QUESTION€I'D€LIKE€TO€RAISE€AS€AÏFUTURE€ISSUE€FOR€THE€PAL€PROGRAM€IS€WHETHER€YOU€COULDÏHAVE€MULTIPLE€CAPS€AT€A€PLANT€SITE,€AGAIN€TO€ALLOW€AÏSOURCE€TO€BETTER€MANAGE€ITS€EMISSIONS,€UNDER€THEÏUMBRELLA€OF€A€PAL€OR€SOMETHING€LIKE€THAT?€€I€HAVEN'TÏTHOUGHT€TOO€HARD€ABOUT€HOW€TO€WORK€ALL€THAT€OUT,€BUT€ITÏSEEMS€LIKE€IT€MAY€BE€EASIER€FOR€SOME€COMPANIES€TO€MANAGEÏTHEIR€OPERATIONS€THAT€WAY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€YEAH.Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€I€DON'T€THINK€THE€AGENCY€SEESÐ X( !( ÐTHE€NEED€TO€DIFFERENTIATE€IN€TERMS€OF€ONLY€APPLYING€AÏPAL€ACROSS€THE€WHOLE€FACILITY€AS€OPPOSED€TO€MULTIPLEÐ ¨+p$, ÐUNITS.€€I€THINK€THE€ISSUES€ARE€MORE€BASELINE,€THEÏABILITY€TO€DEMONSTRATE€COMPLIANCE,€BUT€THERE'S€NOTHINGÏTHAT€PRESCRIBES€A€PAL€AS€ONLY€APPLICABLE€ACROSS€THEÏWHOLE€SOURCE€AS€OPPOSED€TO€JUST€THE€POWERHOUSE€OR€ONEÏCHEMICAL€PRODUCTION€FACILITY,€AND€I€COULD€ENVISIONÏDEFINITELY€HAVING€MULTIPLE€PAL'S.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.BERNIE€PAUL:ó ó€€THANK€YOU.€Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€MIKE,€DID€YOU€HAVE€SOMETHING€TOРИ  ÐSTATE€ON€THIS€ISSUE,€OR€IS€IT€ANOTHER€ISSUE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€JUST€QUICKLY.€€IN€EXPERIMENTINGÐ  è ÐWITH€PAL'S€IN€CALIFORNIA,€WE'VE€HAD€THEM€ON€JUST€LIKE€AÏWHARF€OR€JUST€A€PARTICULAR€MANUFACTURING€FACILITY€WHEREÏIT€MAKES€A€LOT€OF€SENSE€FROM€A€MONITORING€POINT€OF€VIEWÏAND€EFFICIENCY€OF€PLANT€OPERATION€TO€LUMP€THEM€TOGETHER.ÏSO€THAT€THERE€COULD€BE€--€RATHER€THAN€HAVING€FIFTYÏDIFFERENT€OR€A€HUNDRED€DIFFERENT€UNITS,€THERE€COULD€BE,ÏIN€EFFECT,€HALF€A€DOZEN€DIFFERENT€PAL'S€WITHIN€A€PLANT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€AND€AS€PART€OF€CERTAIN€PALÐ `#(" ÐPROJECTS,€WE€ARE€ACTUALLY€LOOKING€AT€IMPLEMENTING€PAL'SÏAT€JUST€CERTAIN€PORTIONS€OF€THE€FACILITY;€FOR€EXAMPLE,ÏPOWERHOUSE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€JOHN€BUNYAK?Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.BUNYAK:ó ó€€JOHN€BUNYAK,€NATIONAL€PARKÐ ¨+p$, ÐSERVICE.€€Ìà àà x àEPA€ACKNOWLEDGES€THAT€CERTAIN€CHANGES€UNDERÏTHE€PAL€CAN€CHANGE€A€SOURCE'S€IMPACT€AREA€AND€MUST€BEÏASSESSED€TO€DEMONSTRATE€PROTECTION€OF€THE€STANDARDS,€THEÏINCREMENTS,€AND€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUES,€BUT€THERE'SÏREALLY€NO€MECHANISM€FOR€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€TO€BEÏINVOLVED€IN€THAT€DETERMINATION.€€I€THINK€THERE€SHOULD€BEÏSOME€SPECIFIC€FLM€CONSULTATION€PROVISIONS€IN€THEÏPROPOSAL€THAT€WOULD€ALLOW€THE€FLM€TO€MAKE€SOMEÏASSESSMENT€ON€AQRV'S.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð È Ðà àà x àDAVID€HAWKINS?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH.€€WELL,€GENERALLY,€IÐ à ÐTHINK€THE€CONCEPT€OF€A€PAL,€AS€A€CONCEPT,€IS€ATTRACTIVEÏAS€A€WAY€OF€REDUCING€TRANSACTION€COSTS,€AND€THE€--€IÏTHINK€THE€KEY€ISSUES€ARE€DESIGN€ISSUES€IN€TERMS€OF€WHATÏDOES€THE€PAL€PROVIDE€FOR€IN€TERMS€OF€TOTAL€EMISSIONS€ANDÏAIR€QUALITY€IMPACT€PROTECTIONS.Ìà àà x àTHERE€ARE€JUST€A€COUPLE€OF€THINGS€I€WANTEDÏTO€MENTION.€€ONE€THAT€YOU€SUMMARIZED,€PAT,€IN€YOURÏINTRODUCTION€THAT€I€JUST€WANT€TO€EXPAND€UPON€FOR€AÏSECOND€„„€AND€THAT€IS€THE€ISSUE€OF€TERMINATION€OR€THEÏDURATION.€€I€THINK€THE€WAY€THE€PAL€CONCEPT€WOULDÐ ¨+p$, ÐOPERATE,€DURING€THE€TERM€OF€A€PAL€THE€FACILITY€COULDÏUNDERTAKE€ANY€CONSTRUCTION€PROJECTS€IT€WISHED€„„ÏPOSSIBLY€SHORT€OF€INTRODUCING€TOTALLY€NEW€UNITS,€BUTÏPOSSIBLY€INCLUDING€TOTALLY€NEW€UNITS€„„€AS€LONG€AS€THEÏEMISSIONS€STAYED€WITHIN€THE€PAL€LIMITS€DURING€THE€TERMÏOF€THE€PAL.Ìà àà x àTHIS€SCENARIO€I€THINK€WE€HAVE€TO€ADDRESS€ASÏA€DESIGN€PROBLEM€IS€HOW€DO€YOU€DEAL€WITH€A€SITUATIONÏWHERE€A€PAL€IS€CREATED€FOR€A€FIVE-YEAR€TERM,€ANDÏCONSTRUCTION€ACTIVITY€OCCURS,€LET'S€SAY,€IN€YEARS€FOURÏAND€FIVE€OF€THAT€TERM€SO€THAT€MAJOR€NEW€PRODUCTIONÏCAPACITY€IS€ALL€READY€TO€RAMP€UP€JUST€AS€THE€PAL€ISÏEXPIRING.€€Ìà àà x àSO€IT'S€EASY€FOR€THE€FACILITY€TO€LIVE€WITHÏTHE€PAL€LIMITS€DURING€THAT€FIVE-YEAR€TERM€BECAUSE€THEYÏHAVEN'T€REALLY€THAT€PRODUCTION€CAPACITY€TO€FULL€USE,€BUTÏTHE€PAL€THEN€EXPIRES,€AND€ALL€OF€THIS€ACTIVITY€WHICH€WASÏCONSTRUCTED€WITHOUT€EITHER€TECHNOLOGY€OR€AIR€QUALITYÏREVIEW,€BECAUSE€OF€THE€PREDICATE€THAT€THERE€WERE€THESEÏPAL€LIMITS€THAT€WERE€GOING€TO€PROVIDE€THE€EQUIVALENTÏSAFEGUARDS€--€ALL€THIS€CONSTRUCTION€CAN€NOW€CONTINUE€TOÏOPERATE€WITHOUT€THOSE€PAL€LIMITS€IN€PLACE€UNDER€THATÏEXPIRATION€SCENARIO.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àAND€THAT'S€A€DESIGN€ISSUE€THAT€I€THINK€WEÏHAVE€TO€DEAL€WITH.€€BECAUSE€IF€WE€DON'T€DEAL€WITH€IT,€IÏTHINK€YOU€COULD€EASILY€SEE€THAT€SCENARIO€DEVELOPING.€ÏIT'S€A€RATION€--€IT€WOULD€BE€A€RATIONAL€BUSINESSÏPLANNING€APPROACH€TO€GET€STUFF€IN€THE€GROUND€AT€A€TIMEÏPAL€REALLY€DIDN'T€IMPOSE€ANY€SIGNIFICANT€CONSTRAINTS€ANDÏWITH€THE€EXPIRATION€THEN€LIMITING€ANY€CONSTRAINTS€IN€THEÏFUTURE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€JOHN€PAUL?Ð x@  Ðà àà x àMR.HAWKINS:ò ò€€I'M€SORRY.€€JUST€A€--Ð  è Ðà àà x àó óMR.RAHER:ò ò€€OH.Ð È Ðà àà x àó óMR.HAWKINS:ò ò€€--€ONE€OTHER€ITEM.€€Ð p8 Ðà àà x àMIKE€BARR€ó óHAS€MENTIONED€THE€STATE€EXPERIENCEÐ à ÐWITH€PAL'S,€AND€THERE'S€BEEN€REFERENCE€TO€SOME€PAL'SÏTHAT€HAVE€BEEN€ESTABLISHED€WITH€EPA€AS€WELL.€€I€THINK€ITÏWOULD€BE€VERY€HELPFUL€IF€THERE€IS€ANY€KIND€OF€AÏCOMPENDIUM€OF€THOSE€PAL'S€THAT€HAVE€BEEN€ESTABLISHED€--ÏIT€SURELY€CAN'T€BE€THAT€MANY€--€TO€GET€SOME€SORT€OF€AÏDOCUMENT€THAT€SUMMARIZES€THEIR€FEATURES,€THEIRÏCHARACTERISTICS,€AND€ANY€OPERATING€EXPERIENCE€THAT€HASÏACTUALLY€OCCURRED€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THEM.€Ìà àà x àI,€YOU€KNOW,€TAKE€MIKE'S€COMMENT€THAT€THEÏSTATES€THAT€HAVE€THESE€HAVE€EXPERIENCE€THAT€SATISFIESÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHEM€THAT€THEY,€INDEED,€PROTECT€THE€ENVIRONMENT,€AND€ITÏWOULD€BE€USEFUL€TO€GET€A€SUMMARY€OF€WHAT€THAT€EXPERIENCEÏIS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ACTUALLY,€THERE€IS€AN€ARTICLEÐ 0 ø ÐTHAT'S€BEING€PUBLISHED€VERY€SHORTLY€IN€ONE€OF€THE€AIRÏQUALITY€PERIODICALS€--€AND€WE'LL€TRY€TO€FIND€THEÏNAME--WHICH€DOES€ACTUALLY€SUMMARIZE€THEM,€AND€WE€CANÏGET€THAT€AND€LET€EVERYBODY€KNOW€THAT€A€LITTLE€LATER.Ìà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.DANIEL:ó ó€€I'M€JOHN€DANIEL,€FROM€VIRGINIA.Ð  è Ðà àà x àVIRGINIA€IS€VERY€SUPPORTIVE€OF€THE€PALÏCONCEPT.€€IN€FACT,€WE'RE€GOING€THROUGH€A€MINOR€NEWÏSOURCE€REVIEW€REGULATION€CHANGE€NOW€THAT€WILL€ALLOW€THISÏCONCEPT,€AND€WE'RE€DOING€IT€FOR€A€COUPLE€OF€REASONS.€€ÌONE,€WE€THINK€IT€WOULD€GIVE€THE€SOURCES€GREATERÏOPPORTUNITIES€TO€RESPOND€TO€CHANGING€MARKET€CONDITIONSÏWHERE€THEY€NEED€TO€DO€SOMETHING€DIFFERENT€SO€THEY€CANÏTAKE€ADVANTAGE€OF€SOMETHING€THAT'S€OUT€THERE.€Ìà àà x àBUT€SECOND,€AND€PROBABLY€PRIMARY€IN€OURÏMIND,€IS€IT'S€GOING€TO€TAKE€SOME€OF€THE€WORKLOAD€OFF€ANÏOVERWORKED€PERMITTING€STAFF€SO€THAT€WE€DON'T€HAVE€TOÏPERMIT€VERY€LITTLE€PIDDLING€CHANGE€THAT€COMES€ALONG€IFÏIT€DOESN'T€EXCEED€THE€PAL.€€SO€WE'RE€EXCITED€ABOUT€THISÐ ¨+p$, ÐCONCEPT€AND€LOOKING€FORWARD€TO€HAVING€IT€IN€THE€PSDÏREGULATION€AS€WELL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€GOOD.€€Ð ˆ P Ðà àà x àCHUCK?Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€FIRST,€I€WANT€TO€SUPPORT€THEÐ Ø   ÐPREPARED€REMARKS€OF€MIKE€BARR.€€HE€REALLY€HIT€MOST€OFÏTHE€KEY€ISSUES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€THAT€WAS€PURELY€CONTEMPORANEOUS.€Ð И  ÐEXTEMPORANEOUS,€SORRY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€I€THINK€SEVERAL€OTHER€POINTS,Ð  è ÐPOINTS€RAISED€BY€OTHERS,€MERIT€NOTING.€€I€THINK,€FIRST,ÏTHAT,€YOU€KNOW,€PAL'S€AND€CAPS€CAN€BE€DONE€TODAY€AND€AREÏBEING€DONE€UNDER€THE€CURRENT€REGS.€€IN€ADDITION,€THEÏBASELINE€I€THINK€WE€SHOULD€BE€LOOKING€AT€„„€UNDERÏCURRENT€REGS€THE€BASELINE€NEED€NOT€BE€THE€LAST€TWOÏYEARS.€€IT€CAN€BE€A€REPRESENTATIVE€PERIOD,€AND€I€GUESSÏI'M€PUZZLED€WHY€THE€AGENCY€FEELS€CONSTRAINED€RIGHT€NOWÏTO€BE€LOOKING€AT€CURRENT€ACTUALS€AS€THE€PAST€TWO€YEARSÏGIVEN€WHAT€THE€REGULATION€SAID.€€AND€IF€I€HEARD€THAT,ÏTHEN€I'VE€MISINTERPRETED€WHAT€YOU€SAID.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID,€DO€YOU€WANT€TO€JUSTÐ X( !( ÐRESPOND?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€YEAH.€€WE'RE€WORKING€WITHINÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHE€FRAMEWORK€OF€THE€EXISTING€REGULATIONS,€WHICH€IS€THEÏLAST€TWO€YEARS€OR€ANOTHER€REPRESENTATIVE€PERIOD€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð ˆ P Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€--€OF€TIME,€BUT€IT'S€STILL€THEÐ 0 ø ÐACTUAL€BASELINE€AS€DEFINED€IN€THE€REGULATIONS€WITH€THEÏAMBIGUITY€OF€WHAT€IS€ANOTHER€REPRESENTATIVE€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€REPRESENTATIVE€PERIOD.Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€--€MORE€REPRESENTATIVE€PERIOD.РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€RIGHT.€€Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€I€THINK€WITH€RESPECT€TO€--€ANDÐ È ÐTHE€OTHER€--€THE€OTHER€POINT€THAT€I€HEARD€WAS€THAT€ITÏCAN€BE€LIKE€UNITS,€BUT€NEED€NOT€BE€THE€ENTIRE€FACILITY,ÏAND€I€THINK€THAT'S€AN€IMPORTANT€POINT.Ìà àà x àWITH€RESPECT€TO€DAVID'S€QUESTION€ABOUT€WHATÏHAPPENS€IN€THE€LAST€TWO€YEARS,€I€GUESS€I€DON'TÏUNDERSTAND€THE€LAST€TWO€YEARS€CAP.€€THE€PAL'S€NEED€NOTÏHAVE€A€TIME€LIMIT,€AND€IF€THERE€WERE€A€TIME€LIMIT,€YOUÏWOULD€BE€LOOKING€BACT€BASELINE€IN€THE€SAME€WAY€„„ÏHOWEVER€IT€ENDS€UP€BEING€CALCULATED,€ACCORDING€TO€THEÏCURRENT€REGS€OR€ACCORDING€TO€REVISED€REGS€„„€FORÏDETERMINING€WHAT€THE€NEW€ONE€MIGHT€BE.€€BUT€THERE€IS€NOÏFIVE€YEARS,€NEED€NOT€BE€A€FIVE-YEAR€LIMIT.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àI€GUESS€THAT'S€SOMETHING€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€CAN€I€JUST€ENGAGE€(SIC)€ONРਠÐTHAT€A€LITTLE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€SURE.€€GO€AHEAD.Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€I€DIDN'T€SAY€THERE€WAS€AÐ Ø   ÐFIVE-YEAR€LIMIT€IN€THE€RULES,€BUT€THERE€IS€NO€--€THEREÏIS€NO€DESIGN€SPEC€WITH€RESPECT€TO€DURATION.€€IN€THEÏABSENCE€OF€A€DESIGN€SPEC,€THERE€WOULDN'T€BE€ANYTHING€TOÏPREVENT€THE€CREATION€OF€PAL'S€FOR€A€LIMITED€TERM€THATÏWOULD€EFFECTIVELY€ALLOW€THE€CONSTRUCTION€OF€MAJOR€NEWÏCAPACITY€THAT€WOULD€NOT€EMIT€AT€ANYTHING€RESEMBLING€ITSÏPOTENTIAL€OR€ITS€FUTURE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€DURING€THE€TERMÏOF€THE€PAL,€BUT€WOULD€SHORTLY€AFTER€THE€TERMINATION€OFÏSUCH€A€PAL€BE€IN€A€POSITION€TO€EMIT€IN€AMOUNTS€MUCHÏGREATER€THAN€THE€AMOUNT€THAT€WAS€CONTEMPLATED€UNDER€THEÏPAL.€€THAT'S€THE€DESIGN€ISSUE€THAT€I€THINK€WE€NEED€TOÏADDRESS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID,€MAYBE€WE€SHOULD€ASK€THEÐ `#(" ÐAGENCY€AS€TO€WHETHER€OR€NOT€THEY€ENVISION€A€PALÏTERMINATING;€OR€IF€IT€TERMINATED,€WHAT€WOULD€HAPPEN€WITHÏRESPECT€TO€THOSE€KINDS€OF€CONSTRUCTION€ACTIVITIES,ÏBECAUSE€IT'S€PROBABLY€AN€ISSUE€THAT€SHOULD€BE€ADDRESSED.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€YEAH.€€TO€ADDRESSÐ ¨+p$, ÐDAVIDHAWKINS'€CONCERN,€I€MEAN,€WITHIN€THE€PAL€STRUCTUREÏWE€WOULD€ASSUME€THAT€THE€LIMITATIONS€THAT€APPLIED€INÏORDER€FOR€THAT€NEW€UNIT€TO€BE€BUILT€IN€TERMS€OF€THEÏEMISSIONS€ALLOCATION€TO€THAT€UNIT€AND€OTHER€UNITS€WOULDÏSTILL€BE€BINDING.€€THE€SOURCE€WOULD€NOT€HAVE€THEÏFLEXIBILITY€UNDER€THAT€ALLOCATION€TO€MAKE€CHANGES€ANYÏMORE,€BUT€THAT€WAS€A€CONDITION€OF€CONSTRUCTION.€€Ìà àà x àSO€IF€THE€SOURCE€WAS€ALLOCATED€500€TONS€FORÏUNITS€A,€B,€AND€C€AND€BROUGHT€UNIT€D€WITHIN€THATÏ500TONS,€WE€WOULD€ENVISION€THAT€LIMIT€AS€STILL€APPLYINGÏAS€A€TERM€OF€THE€CONDITION€OF€CONSTRUCTION.€€BUT€IF€THEÏPAL€EXPIRED,€IT€WOULD€EXPIRE€AS€AN€APPLICABILITY€TEST,ÏNOT€AS€AN€EMISSION€LIMITATION€ON€THAT€NEW€UNIT€AND€THEÏUNITS€UNDER€THE€PAL.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THAT€JUST€SEEMED€TO€MAKE€SOMEÐ h0 ÐCARDS€GO€DOWN.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€PAT?€€Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€PAT,€THAT'S€BEEN€OUR€EXPERIENCE,Ð `#(" ÐTOO,€THAT€THERE€--€THE€LIMITS€REALLY€SERVE€TWOÏFUNCTIONS.€€ONE€IS€ENFORCEMENT,€AND€THE€OTHER€ISÏAPPLICABILITY,€AND€THE€ENFORCEABLE€LIMITS€OUGHT€TOÏCONTINUE.€€IT€IS€A€DESIGN€FEATURE€FOR€THE€PROGRAM.€€IT'SÏAN€IMPORTANT€ONE€THAT€SHOULD€BE€CONSIDERED,€I€THINK,€BYÐ ¨+p$, ÐEPA.€€AND€IF€EPA€COULD€LEAVE€AS€MUCH€FLEXIBILITY€UP€TOÏTHE€STATES€AS€POSSIBLE,€THAT€WOULD€BE€GREATLYÏAPPRECIATED.€€Ìà àà x àTHERE€ARE€POWERFUL€REASONS,€I€THINK,€FORÏSOURCES€WHO€CHOOSE€A€PAL€TO€KEEP€PAL€AND€NOT€GET€OUT€OFÏTHE€PAL,€BUT€IT€IS€AN€IMPORTANT€POINT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€JOHN,€DO€YOU€HAVE€A€COMMENT€ONÐ (ð  ÐTHIS€PARTICULAR€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUT:ó ó€€YEAH.€€I€THINK€THIS€GOES€BACK€TOÐ x@  ÐTHE€ONE€„„€STAPPA€AND€ALAPCO€PRINCIPLES,€THAT€THEÏCHEAPEST€AND€BEST€TIME€TO€CONTROL€A€NEW€SOURCE€IS€THEÏTIME€THAT€IT'S€INSTALLED.€€AND€THE€ISSUE€HERE,€I€THINK,ÏIS€IF€A€PIECE€OF€EQUIPMENT€IS€INSTALLED€WITHOUT€GOODÏCONTROLS€--€AND€LATER€BECAUSE€THERE€WANTS€TO€BE€ANÏINCREASE,€WE€GO€BACK€AND€LOOK€AT€IT€--€NOW€THERE€HASÏBEEN€A€CERTAIN€AMOUNT€OF€MONEY€THAT€WAS€SPENT€TO€PUTÏTHAT€IN,€AND€IT€WILL€BE€MUCH€EXPENSIVE€TO€RETROFIT€WITHÏGOOD€CONTROLS.€€Ìà àà x àEVEN€IF€THAT€IS€SUBJECT€TO€A€REVIEW,€THEÏECONOMICS€OF€PLAYING€INTO€THE€PROBLEM€THAT€IT'S€CHEAPERÏTO€DESIGN€INTO€A€NEW€SOURCE€GOOD€CONTROLS€THAN€IT€ISÏRETROFIT.€€SO€I€THINK€ONE€OF€THE€ISSUES€THATÏDAVIDHAWKINS€IS€REALLY€ADDRESSING€HERE€IS€THAT€IF€AÐ ¨+p$, ÐPIECE€OF€EQUIPMENT€IS€INSTALLED,€THE€ECONOMICS€CHANGE€ASÏTO€WHAT€WOULD€BE€REQUIRED€IF€THEY€WERE€TO€INCREASE€TOÏTHEIR€FULL€POTENTIAL.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BILL?Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.PEDERSEN:ó ó€€YEAH,€JUST€A€THOUGHT€ONÐ Ø   ÐPOSSIBLE€--€POSSIBLE€SIMPLIFICATION€OF€ALL€THE€CONCEPTSÏIN€THIS€APPLICABILITY€PART€OF€THE€PACKAGE.€€WHEN€YOUÏLOOK€AT€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXCLUSION,€AND€YOU€LOOK€AT€THEÏPAL,€THEY'RE€REALLY€TWO€SUGGESTIONS€WITH€SIMILARÏRESULTS,€AND€THE€RESULT€IS€SOME€TYPE€OF€ANÏALLOWABLE-TO-ALLOWABLE€ACCOUNTING€SYSTEM.€€Ìà àà x àI€THINK€--€I€THINK€IT€WOULD€BE€WORTH€DOINGÏTO€SEE€IF€YOU€COULD€RESTATE€A€CLEAN€UNIT€AS€A€TYPE€OF€AÏPAL,€AND€IT€SEEMS€--€IT€SEEMS€TO€BE€LOGICAL,€AND€I€THINKÏIT€MIGHT€BE€A€WAY€OF€STRIPPING€OUT€SOME€OF€WHAT€I'DÏCERTAINLY€AGREE€IS€THE€EXCESS€COMPLEXITY€OUT€THE€CLEANÏUNIT€APPROACH.€€I€HAVEN'T€TRIED€TO€DO€IT,€BUT€I'M€--€IÏCERTAINLY€PLAN€TO€THINK€ABOUT€IT€SOME€MORE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€MIKE,€DO€YOU€HAVE€ANOTHER€--Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€JUST€A€RESPONSE.€€I€THINK€THAT'SÐ °&x& ÐAN€EXCELLENT€IDEA.€€I€THINK€THAT'S€EXACTLY€WHAT€THEÏCLEAN€UNIT€IS,€IS€A€TYPE€OF€A€PAL€UNDER€CERTAINÏCIRCUMSTANCES€THAT,€AS€EARNED,€MAY€BE€MORE€TIMEÐ ¨+p$, ÐPROTECTION€BY€BEING€A€CLEAN€UNIT.Ìà àà x àON€THE€ISSUE€OF€THE€APPROPRIATE€TIME€FOR€NEWÏSOURCE€REVIEW:€€WHEN€AN€ENTIRE€PLANT€HAS€JUST€GONEÏTHROUGH€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW,€IT'S€INCREDIBLY€WASTEFUL€ANDÏDELAYING€TO€EVERYBODY,€INCLUDING€THE€AGENCY,€TO€REQUIREÏTHE€LOOK€AT€THAT€TECHNOLOGY€OVER€AND€OVER€AND€OVER€ANDÏOVER€AGAIN.€€AND€SO€THAT€GENERAL€PRINCIPLE€ISÏUNDERSTANDABLE,€BUT€IT'S€NOT€NECESSARILY€CORRECT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€I€THINK€WE'VE€HAD€A€GOODÐ x@  ÐDISCUSSION€ON€PAL'S.€€WE'VE€HAD€SOME€CLARIFICATION€ANDÏSOME€OF€THE€ISSUES€RAISED.€€ARE€THERE€ANY€OTHER€COMMENTSÏON€THE€PAL€CONCEPT?Ìà àà x àALL€RIGHT,€WE'VE€GOT€A€COUPLE€MORE€POINTS€ONÏAPPLICABILITY,€BUT€I€THINK€EVERYBODY€NEEDS€TO€GET€UP€ANDÏGET€SOME€BLOOD€FLOWING.€€AND€SO€WHY€DON'T€WE€RECONVENEÏIN€TEN€MINUTES,€WHICH€WOULD€BE€11:05,€AND€THEN€WE'LL€TRYÏTO€FINISH€THIS€UP€AND€MOVE€INTO€THE€NEXT€AREA.Ìà@xx!øà(10:56€A.M.€€RECESS€€11:19€A.M.)ˆÌà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€WE€LEFT€OFF€TALKINGÐ %Ð$ ÐABOUT€SOME€OF€THE€ISSUES€DEALING€WITH€APPLICABILITY,€ANDÏTHERE€ARE€TWO€APPLICABILITY€ISSUES€LEFT€THAT€WE€STILLÏNEED€TO€ADDRESS€AS€SOON€AS€MR.BECKER€SITS€DOWN.€€THEREÏARE€SO€MANY€MEMBERS€AROUND€THE€TABLE€THAT€HE€CAN'T€EVENÐ ¨+p$, ÐMAKE€IT€TO€HIS€SEAT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€I'M€THE€ONLY€ONE€THAT'S€NOTРਠÐHERE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THAT'S€RIGHT.€€YOU'RE€THE€ONLYÐ 0 ø ÐONE€THAT'S€HOLDING€IT€UP.Ìà àà x àLET'S€GO€NOW€TO€THE€ISSUE€OF€POLLUTIONÏCONTROL€PROJECTS.€€ONCE€AGAIN,€JUST€FOR€THE€BENEFIT€OFÏYOUR€BACKGROUND,€REMEMBER€THAT€THE€AGENCY€HAS€PROPOSED€AÏGENERAL€EXCLUSION€BASICALLY€FOR€ADD-ON€CONTROLS,€FUELÏSWITCHES€TO€CLEANER€FUELS,€AND€POLLUTION€PREVENTIONÏPROJECTS.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€COMMENTS€THAT€WERE€RECEIVED€YESTERDAY€--ÏAGAIN€NOT€EXTENSIVE,€BUT€I€THINK€IMPORTANT€AND€ONES€THATÏI€THINK€THE€COMMITTEE€SHOULD€ADDRESS€--€IS,€FIRST€OFÏALL,€THERE€WERE€THE€STATES€SUGGESTING€AGAIN€THAT€THISÏMIGHT€BE€TOO€MUCH€OF€A€BURDEN€IN€TERMS€OF€THE€REVIEW€ONÏIT,€ALTHOUGH€I€THINK€THAT€WAS€LESS€CRITICAL€THAN€ON€THEÏOTHER€ISSUES€BECAUSE,€OBVIOUSLY,€POLLUTION€CONTROLÏPROJECTS€ARE€ONES€THAT€THEY€ARE€WELCOMING€AND€LOOKINGÏAT.€Ìà àà x àSOME€INDIVIDUALS€THOUGHT€THAT,€AND€CONCERNS,ÏTHOUGHT€THAT€THE€DEFINITION€OF€THE€PCP€WAS€TOO€NARROW.€ÏTHEY€WANTED€IT€TO€COVER€THE€INSTALLATION€OF€--€ORÐ ¨+p$, ÐSUGGESTED€THAT€THE€AGENCY€AND€THE€FACA€CONSIDER€ACTUALLYÏCOVERAGE€OF€NEW€UNITS,€THE€ACTUAL€CHANGES€REQUIRED€BYÏSTATE€AND€LOCAL€REQUIREMENTS€THAT€MAY€BE€DESIGNED€TOÏREDUCE€POLLUTION,€PROGRAMS€SUCH€AS€EPA'S€33/50€PROGRAM.€ÏAND€ONE€OR€MORE€MEMBERS€SUGGESTED€THAT€EVEN€CROSS-MEDIAÏPROGRAMS,€SUCH€AS€WATER€POLLUTION€PROJECTS,€SHOULD€BEÏCONSIDERED€FOR€PURPOSES€OF€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECTS.€Ìà àà x àOTHER€COMMENTS€WERE€THAT€THE€POLLUTIONÏCONTROL€PROJECT€ANALYSIS€„„€WITHOUT€THOSE€ADDITIONS€„„ÏREALLY€IS€EXTREMELY€COMPLEX€AND€DIFFICULT€TO€EXPLAIN,ÏLET€ALONE€ADMINISTER.€€THE€EXAMPLE€WAS€TO€REFERENCE€THEÏAGENCY'S€DISCUSSION€OF€ERC'S€AND€THE€RELATIONSHIP€OFÏTHAT€TO€THE€OVERALL€PCP€PROGRAM,€AND€YOU€CAN€--€THEÏSUGGESTION€WAS€DEMONSTRATES€THE€COMPLEXITY,€AND€THATÏTHERE€SHOULD€BE€EITHER€SOME€WAY€TO€ADDRESS€THAT€ISSUE€ORÏEVEN€POSSIBLY€ELIMINATE€THE€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECT.€Ìà àà x àAND€THEN€THE€NEXT€QUESTION€WAS€WHETHER€ORÏNOT€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECTS,€AS€DEFINED,€COULDÏACTUALLY€LEAD€TO€EMISSIONS€INCREASES€AS€OPPOSED€TOÏDECREASES.Ìà àà x àDAVID,€AGAIN€WE€TURN€TO€YOU€TO€GIVE€US€AÏLITTLE€BIT€OF€BACKGROUND:€€THE€THOUGHT€PROCESS€THAT€THEÏAGENCY€HAD€IN€TRYING€TO€GENERATE€WHICH€--€AN€OPTIONÐ ¨+p$, ÐWHICH€CLEARLY€BY€ITS€NAME€IS€ONE€THAT€THIS€FACA€AND€MANYÏOF€THE€PEOPLE€ON€IT€WOULD€SUPPORT;€THAT€IS,€DOINGÏSOMETHING€TO€IMPROVE€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECTS.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€AS€YOU'RE€AWARE,€WE€CURRENTLYÐ 0 ø ÐHAVE€A€POLICY€MEMO€OUT€WHICH€EXCLUDES€OR€ALLOWS€FOR€THEÏEXCLUSION,€WITH€CERTAIN€SAFEGUARDS,€OF€POLLUTION€CONTROLÏPROJECTS.€€WE€ALSO€HAVE€THE€òòWEPCOóó€RULEMAKING,€WHICHÐ (ð  ÐEXCLUDES€CERTAIN€TYPE€OF€ACTIVITIES€AS€POLLUTION€CONTROLÏPROJECTS€AT€UTILITIES.€€AND€WHAT€WE€DID€WAS€TO€BUILDÏUPON€THOSE€TWO€EXCLUSIONS€TO€COME€UP€WITH€AN€EXCLUSIONÏTHAT€WOULD€APPLY€ACROSS€THE€BOARD€„„€BASICALLY€TO€ALLÏFACILITIES€„„€TRYING€TO€PROVIDE€AS€MUCH€OF€A€STREAMLINEDÏAND€SIMPLIFIED€EXCLUSION€AS€WE€CAN,€AND,€ESSENTIALLY,€WEÏTHINK€WE'VE€DONE€THAT.€Ìà àà x àTO€THE€EXTENT€THAT€THE€PROJECT€QUALIFIESÏUNDER€THE€DEFINITION€OF€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECT,€IT€ISÏEXCLUDED€UNLESS€IT'S€DETERMINED€THAT€THERE€WILL€BE€ANÏINCREASE€IN€EMISSIONS.€€THE€WAY€THE€EMISSIONS€INCREASEÏIS€DETERMINED€IS€ESSENTIALLY€AN€ACTUAL-TO-ACTUAL€TYPE€OFÏTEST.€€SO€IF€THE€UNIT€IS€NOT€GOING€TO€BE€OPERATED€ANYÏDIFFERENTLY€AFTER€THE€APPLICATION€OF€THE€CONTROL€DEVICE,ÏTHERE€IS€NO€ASSESSMENT€OF€AN€EMISSIONS€INCREASE.€€AND,ÏAGAIN,€ONLY€IF€THE€EMISSIONS€WILL€INCREASE€ACTUALLY€ANDÐ ¨+p$, ÐONLY€IF€THAT€INCREASE€--€IF€THERE'S€A€CONCERN€ON€THEÏSTATE'S€PART€THAT€THAT€WOULD€CAUSE€OR€CONTRIBUTE€TO€ANÏVIOLATION€WOULD€THE€PROJECT€NOT€BE€ALLOWED€TO€GO€AHEAD.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ISSUES€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THAT?€Ð 0 ø ÐICLAL?Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€WE€IN€THE€STATE€OF€NEW€JERSEY€--Ð €H  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ICLAL,€COULD€YOU€JUST€--Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€OKAY.РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€--€IDENTIFY€YOURSELF€--Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€THANK€YOU.Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€--€FOR€THE€RECORD?€Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€ICLAL€ATAY,€NEW€JERSEY€DEPARTMENTÐ p8 ÐOF€ENVIRONMENTAL€PROTECTION.Ìà àà x àWE€IN€NEW€JERSEY€HAVE€USED€THE€POLLUTIONÏCONTROL€PROJECT€GUIDANCE€OF€EPA€IN€ISSUING€NOòòXóó€RACTÐ h0 ÐCOMPLIANCE€PLANS,€AND€IT€HAS€WORKED€WELL€BECAUSE€WE€HADÏCOME€OUT€WITH€REGULATIONS€THAT€MANDATED€PEOPLE€TOÏINSTALL€CONTROL€TECHNOLOGY€TO€REDUCE€THEIR€NITROGENÏOXIDES€EMISSIONS.€€THE€SAME€CONTROL€TECHNOLOGY€CAUSED€ANÏINCREASE€IN€CARBON€MONOXIDE€EMISSIONS.€€Ìà àà x àSINCE€WE€WERE€IN€AN€ATTAINMENT€AREA€FORÏCARBON€MONOXIDE€AND€A€SEVERE€NONATTAINMENT€AREA€FOR€NOòòXóó,Ð *È"* ÐTHAT€WAS€A€GOOD€PROVISION,€AND€IT€HELPED€US€IMPLEMENTÐ ¨+p$, ÐRULES€AND€NOT€SUBJECT€THE€FACILITY€TO€PSD€REVIEW€FORÏSOMETHING€WE€HAD€MANDATED€TO€THEM€TO€INSTALL.Ìà àà x àHOWEVER,€I€HAVE€CONCERN€WITH€THE€EXPANDEDÏUSE€OF€THE€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECT.€€WE€HAD€PEOPLEÏAPPROACH€NEW€JERSEY,€AND€THEY€WANTED€TO€INSTALL€A€NEWÏPOWER€PLANT.€€THE€NEW€POWER€PLANT€WOULD€CAUSE€THEIRÏEMISSIONS€OF€NOòòXóó€TO€GO€FROM€1,000€TONS€TO€500€TONS,€ANDÐ (ð  ÐTHEY€WANTED€TO€EMPLOY€A€TECHNOLOGY€THAT€WOULD€ACHIEVEÏTHE€500€TONS€PER€YEAR€EMISSIONS.€€Ìà àà x àHOWEVER,€FOR€THE€LAST€TEN€YEARS€WE€HAD€ASKEDÏALL€OF€THE€FACILITIES€THAT€INSTALLED€SIMILAR€POWERÏPLANTS€TO€INSTALL€A€TECHNOLOGY€THAT€WOULD€ACHIEVE€ONLYÏ100€TONS€PER€YEAR€OF€EMISSIONS,€AND€THE€COST€BETWEEN€THEÏ100€TONS€PER€YEAR€FACILITY€AND€THE€500€TONS€PER€YEARÏFACILITY€WAS€ONLY€MINIMAL.€€AND€FOR€THIS€FACILITY€TO€ASKÏTO€BE€EXCLUDED€„„€SAYING€THEY€ARE€GOING€TO€HAVE€500€TONSÏPER€REDUCTION€IN€THE€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECT,€ANDÏWE'RE€REPLACING€OUR€POWERHOUSE;€THEREFORE,€WE€SHOULD€BEÏEXCLUDED€„„€WAS€NOT€JUSTIFIED€IN€OUR€CASE.Ìà àà x àIF€EVERYBODY€ELSE€CAN€INSTALL€„„€THERE'S€AÏMINIMAL€COST€DIFFERENCE;€THE€TECHNOLOGY€IS€AVAILABLEÏREADILY€--€WHY€SHOULDN'T€THEY€INSTALL€THE€TECHNOLOGYÏTHAT€ONLY€ACHIEVES€100€TONS€PER€YEAR?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ICLAL,€LET€ME€CLARIFY€ONE€THING,Ð 8 ÐIF€I€COULD.€€OBVIOUSLY,€THAT€EXAMPLE,€WHICH€IS€A€GOODÏEXAMPLE,€WAS€NOT€NEARLY€ADD-ON€CONTROL,€AND€IT€CERTAINLYÏWASN'T€A€FUEL€SWITCH€WHICH€THE€AGENCY€SAID€IT'S€--€YOUÏKNOW,€THEY€WOULD€CONSIDER€AS€POLLUTION€CONTROL€PROJECTS.€ÏYOU€WOULD€PUT€THAT€THEN€IN€THE€CLASSIFICATION€SOMEBODYÏWOULD€BE€ASKING€FOR€THAT€AS€A€POLLUTION€PREVENTIONÏPROJECT,€AND€YOU€THINK€THAT€THAT'S€AN€AREAS€THAT€NEEDSÏTO€BE€ADDRESSED€BECAUSE€OF€YOUR€EXAMPLE.€€CORRECT?€Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€CORRECT.€Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€GOOD.€€GOOD€POINT.Ð È Ðà àà x àANY€OTHER€COMMENTS€ON€THE€PCP€ANALYSIS€ORÏISSUES€AS€THEY€WERE€DISCUSSED?€€NO€COMMENTS?€€OKAY.€€Ìà àà x àI€THINK€WITH€RESPECT€TO€APPLICABILITY€NOW,ÏI'D€LIKE€TO€ASK€ANYBODY€WHO€HAS€LOOKED€AT€THE€PACKAGE,ÏADDRESSED€ISSUES,€ET€CETERA,€TO€RAISE€ANY€ADDITIONALÏISSUES€WITH€RESPECT€TO€APPLICABILITY.€€THERE€WAS€ONEÏADDITIONAL€COMMENT€„„€NOT€LISTED€IN€THE€PACKAGE€AS€SUCHÏAS€A€PROPOSED€REGULATION,€BUT€MORE€AS€A€QUESTION€„„€THATÏWAS€RAISED€AT€YESTERDAY'S€HEARING€THAT€I€WILL€START€OFFÏTHIS€ANALYSIS€WITH;€AND€THAT€IS,€WHETHER€THE€PACKAGEÏSHOULD€ALSO€INCLUDE€FROM€AN€APPLICABILITY€STANDPOINT€THEÏQUESTION€OF€ALLOWING€PRE-PERMIT€CONSTRUCTION.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àI€KNOW€THAT€WE€HAD€SEVERAL€DISCUSSIONS€ANDÏANALYSES€THROUGHOUT€THE€PROJECT€--€THROUGHOUT€THISÏFACA--AS€TO€THAT,€AND€THIS€WAS€RAISED€AGAIN€YESTERDAYÏAT€THE€HEARING€AND€WAS€BROKEN€DOWN€REALLY€INTO€TWOÏCATEGORIES.€€THE€FIRST€ONE€WAS€WITH€RESPECT€TO€EXISTINGÏSOURCES€TO€ALLOW€MODIFICATIONS€AND€ADDRESSES€ONCE€THEÏPERMIT€APPLICATION€WAS€FILED€AND€COMPLETE,€DEEMEDÏCOMPLETE€--€ALLOW€THOSE€TO€BE€CONSTRUCTED€AT€THE€OWNER'SÏRISK€AND€ALSO€EVEN€TESTING€OF€THOSE€MODIFICATIONS€SOÏLONG€AS€THERE€ARE€NO€VIOLATIONS€OF€EXISTING€EMISSIONÏLIMITS.€€WITH€RESPECT€TO€A€GREENFIELD€SOURCE,€IT€WASÏMORE€IN€THE€LINE€OF€KEEPING€THE€EXISTING€RULES€WITHÏRESPECT€TO€CLEARING€AND€FOUNDATIONS.Ìà àà x àTHE€ISSUE€WAS€RAISED€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THATÏQUESTION€AS€TO€WHETHER€OR€NOT€THERE€WOULD€BE€TOO€MUCHÏPRESSURE€PLACED€ON€STATES€BECAUSE€OF€THE€FACT€THAT€THEÏINVESTMENT€HAD€ALREADY€BEEN€MADE,€ALTHOUGH€OBVIOUSLYÏTHERE€ARE€OTHER€PERMIT-€OR€CERTIFICATE-TYPE€PROGRAMS€INÏWHICH€CONSTRUCTION€IS€ALLOWED€IN€THE€MOBILE€SOURCE€AREAÏUNDER€EPA'S€REGULATION€THAT€DOESN'T€MANDATE€THAT€THEÏAGENCY€GRANT€THE€CERTIFICATE€JUST€BECAUSE€THE€CARS€HAVEÏBEEN€BUILT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€THERE€WAS€ALSO€SOME€SUGGESTION€THAT,€INÐ ¨+p$, ÐFACT,€THERE€MAY€BE€TOO€MUCH€PRESSURE€ON€THE€SOURCE.€ÏBECAUSE€ONCE€YOU'VE€MADE€THE€INVESTMENT,€AND€YOU€HAVEÏEVERYTHING€IN€PLACE,€BASICALLY€WHATEVER€THE€PUBLIC€ORÏTHE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€WOULD€WANT€YOU€WOULD€AGREE€TOÏBECAUSE€YOU€HAD€YOUR€CAPITAL€INVESTMENT€ALREADY€SUNK.Ìà àà x àSO€THOSE€--€THAT€WAS€AN€ISSUE€WITH€RESPECTÏTO€APPLICABILITY€THAT€WAS€NOT€IDENTIFIED€AS€SUCH€IN€OURÏPACKAGE€THAT€WE€GOT€BUT€THAT€WAS€BROUGHT€UP€AT€THEÏHEARING.€€ARE€THERE€ANY€COMMENTS€ON€THAT?€€Ìà àà x àBILL?Ìà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERS:ó ó€€ACTUALLY,€QUITE€BRIEF.€€ITÐ È ÐSOUNDS€TO€ME€--€WELL,€NUMBER€ONE,€I€THINK€FOR€EXISTINGÏSOURCES,€GIVING€OWNERS€THE€ABILITY€TO€MOVE€FORWARD€WITHÏTHE€PROJECTS€AT€THEIR€OWN€RISK€IS€AN€EXCELLENT€IDEA.€€ITÏIS€MY€EXPERIENCE€WITH€THE€MODIFICATIONS€ARE€THAT€SOURCESÏARE€ON€A€FAIRLY€SHORT€TIME€LINE.€€THEY€USUALLY€WANT€TOÏMAKE€CHANGES€BECAUSE€THERE€IS€SOMETHING€WRONG€WITH€THEIRÏFACILITY,€AND€IN€THE€END€YOU€KNOW€WITH€RELATIVEÏCERTAINTY€WHERE€YOU'RE€GOING€TO€END€UP.€€THERE'S€NOTÏTHAT€MUCH€QUESTION€ABOUT€WHAT€IS€GOING€TO€APPLY€TO€YOU.Ìà àà x àTHAT€HAVING€BEEN€SAID,€IT€SOUNDS€TO€ME€THATÏTHE€CONCERNS€OFFERED€SORT€OF€ARE€A€GOOD€BALANCE,€ANDÏTHAT€IS€RISK€ON€BOTH€SIDES:€€RISK€THAT€YOU'RE€GOING€TOÐ ¨+p$, ÐBE€SUBJECT€TO€PRESSURE€IF€YOU€DO€IT,€AFTER€YOU'VE€MADEÏTHE€INVESTMENT,€TO€GO€AHEAD€AND€PUT€IN€A€RETROFIT€VERSUSÏRISK€ON€THE€OTHER€SIDE€THAT€ECONOMIC€FORCES€WILL€TELLÏTHE€STATE€NOT€TO€DO€ANYTHING€MORE.€€IT€LOOKS€LIKE€A€GOODÏBALANCE€TO€STRIKE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€WELL,€WE'LL€TALK€ABOUT€THATÐ €H  ÐBALANCE.€€Ìà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àMR.JOHN€PAUL:ò ò€€STAPPA€AND€ALAPCO€WILL€HAVEÐ x@  ÐMORE€DETAILED€COMMENTS€IN€OUR€WRITTEN€COMMENTS.€€WE€HAVEÏSOME€--€HAD€SOME€OF€OUR€MEMBERS€--€AND€AS€YOU€CANÏIMAGINE,€THEY'RE€IN€THE€NORTHERN€PART€OF€THE€COUNTRY€--ÏWHO€BELIEVE€THAT€IT€IS€IMPORTANT€BECAUSE€THEÏCONSTRUCTION€SEASON€IS€NOT€NEAR€AS€LONG€UP€IN€MINNESOTAÏAS€IT€IS€IN€FLORIDA,€FOR€EXAMPLE.€€SO€WE€ARE€GOING€TOÏADDRESS€THIS€ISSUE.€€Ìà àà x àI€KNOW€IN€A€FORMER€LIFETIME,€WHEN€I€WAS€INÏONE€OF€THOSE€NORTHERN€CLIMATES,€WE€DID€HAVE€A€WAIVERÏPROVISION€--€NOT€FOR€PSD€PERMITS€BECAUSE€THAT€WASÏCLEARLY€NOT€ALLOWED,€BUT€IN€OFFSET€PERMIT€SITUATIONS.ÏAND€CAREFULLY€CRAFTED€WAIVERS€DO€WORK,€AND€IT'SÏIMPORTANT€THAT€THE€INDUSTRY€NOT€THEN€HAVE€ANY€RIGHTSÏGIVEN€TO€IT€ó óBECAUSE€THEY€SPENT€MONEY€DOING€THINGS.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àAND€WE€ALWAYS€GET€INTO,€YEAH,€WE€ALL€SAYÏTHAT€IT'S€GOING€TO€COUNT€THAT€YOU'VE€ALREADY€SPENT€SOMEÏMONEY,€BUT,€AGAIN,€A€CAREFULLY€CRAFTED€WAIVER€PROGRAMÏWAS€VERY€WORKABLE€IN€MICHIGAN,€AND€WE€WILL€PROBABLY€BEÏSUGGESTING€A€LITTLE€BIT€OF€FLEXIBILITY€IN€THIS€ISSUE.Ìà àà x àON€--€IF€YOU€WANT€OTHER€ISSUES,€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€YEAH.Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€--€ON€APPLICABILITY€--РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€WAS€JUST€GOING€TO€SAY€UNLESSÐ x@  ÐTHERE€ARE€ANY€OTHER€COMMENTS€ON€PRE-PERMIT€CONSTRUCTION,ÏI€THINK€IF€ANYBODY€ELSE€HAS€ISSUES€ON€APPLICABILITY,€WEÏSHOULD€NOW€RAISE€THEM.Ìà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€OKAY.€€THE€--€OKAY,€THEÐ Àˆ ÐòòWEPCOóó€--Ð h0 Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I'M€SORRY.€Ð  Ø Ðà àà x àDAVID,€DID€YOU€HAVE€--?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€MINE'S€APPLICABILITY,€ALSO,Ð `#(" ÐSO--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€THAT'S€FINE.€€GO€AHEAD.Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€THANK€YOU.€Ð X( !( Ðà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€WE€DIDN'T€TALK€ABOUT€THEÐ *È"* ÐòòWEPCOóó€ISSUE,€AND€THAT,€OF€COURSE,€GETS€INTO€THE€SAMEÐ ¨+p$, ÐISSUE€OF€THE€ACTUAL€VERSUS€POTENTIAL€EMISSIONS.€€WE€ATÏTHIS€POINT€WOULD€POINT€OUT€THAT€WE€ARE€CONCERNED€THAT€IFÏTHE€òòWEPCOóó€PROVISIONS€WERE€EXTENDED€TO€OTHER€INDUSTRIESÐ ˆ P ÐTHAT€A€WHOLE€LOT€OF€RESOURCE€COULD€BE€CONSUMED€INÏLOOKING€IN€THE€ISSUE€OF€WHAT€COULD€AND€WHAT€WOULD€HAVEÏHAPPENED.€€IN€THE€INDUSTRY€SECTOR,€WE€DON'T€HAVE€NEARÏTHE€INFORMATION€FOR€THE€OTHER€SOURCE€CATEGORIES€AS€THEÏUTILITIES€HAVE,€AND€WE€ALSO€SUGGEST€THAT€THERE€CERTAINLYÏIS€AN€ISSUE€OF€CERTAINTY€FOR€INDUSTRY€WHERE€AN€ISSUE€MAYÏBE€LOOKED€AT€FIVE€OR€TEN€YEARS€IN€THE€FUTURE€AS€TOÏWHETHER€OR€NOT€THEY€COMPLIED€WITH€THE€ORIGINALÏREQUIREMENTS€AND€CERTAINLY€IN€THE€FUTURE€COULD€THEN€BEÏREQUIRED€TO€RETROFIT€IF€THEY€DID€NOT€MEET€THOSEÏREQUIREMENTS.€€Ìà àà x àSO€THERE'S€NOT€A€WHOLE€LOT€OF€CERTAINTY€FORÏINDUSTRY,€SO€IT€SETS€UP€AN€ISSUE€WHERE€WE€COULD€HAVEÏCONFRONTATIONS€YEARS€DOWN€THE€ROAD,€AND€WE€ARE€CONCERNEDÏABOUT€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID?Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH.€€WELL,€I€ALSO€WANTED€TOÐ °&x& ÐRAISE€THE€ACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUALS€ISSUE.€€AS€YOU€KNOW,ÏIN€THE€PAST€WE'VE€HAD€DISCUSSIONS€IN€TRYING€TO€FINDÏOUT--€TRYING€TO€PINPOINT€THE€DIFFICULTY€THAT€INDUSTRYÐ ¨+p$, ÐWOULD€HAVE€ACTUALLY€HAVING€A€FUTURE€ACTUAL€PROJECTION€BEÏAN€ENFORCEABLE€OBLIGATION,€AND€THIS€HAS€AGAIN€TO€DO€WITHÏTHE€LINKAGE.€€Ìà àà x àIF,€IN€FACT,€THE€RULES€ADOPT€AN€APPROACHÏTHAT€ALLOW€THE€BASELINE€TO€BE€SOMETHING€THAT€THE€FIRMÏACTUALLY€FEELS€IS€REPRESENTATIVE€OF€ITS€EMISSIONS€IN€THEÏPAST,€AND€IT€ASSERTS€THAT€ITS€FUTURE€ACTUALS€WON'T€BEÏMORE€THAN€THAT,€WHAT€IS€THE€DIFFICULTY€WITH€HAVING€THATÏASSERTION€BE€ACCOMPANIED€BY€AN€ENFORCEABLE€OBLIGATION?€ÏSO€THAT'S€THE€FIRST€QUESTION.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€SECOND€ISSUE,€IF€I€COULD€JUST€GO€BACK€TOÏTHE€QUESTIONS€THAT€BERNIE€PAUL€RAISED€WITH€RESPECT€TOÏTHE€PAL'S€AND€THE€IDEA€OF€PAL'S€THAT€COVER€LESS€THAN€ANÏENTIRE€FACILITY,€THERE€ARE€A€COUPLE€OF€THINGS€THAT€COMEÏTO€MIND.€€ONE€IS€THAT€THE€--€THERE€ARE€OFTEN€PROJECTS€ATÏEXISTING€FACILITIES€WHICH€--€WHERE€THE€EQUIPMENT€BEINGÏMODIFIED€OR€INSTALLED€ITSELF€MAY€ONLY€HAVE€MODESTÏEMISSION€INCREASES€ASSOCIATED€WITH€IT.€€BUT€IT€IS€LINKEDÏIN€A€PROCESS€TO€OTHER€EMITTING€UNITS€WHICH,€AS€A€RESULTÏOF€INSTALLING€THIS€NEW€EQUIPMENT€OR€UPGRADING€THIS€NEWÏEQUIPMENT,€THOSE€OTHER€PIECES€OF€EQUIPMENT€WILL€HAVEÏVERY€SUBSTANTIAL€INCREASES€IN€EMISSIONS.€€Ìà àà x àYOU€MAY€HAVE€A€PROCESS€WHICH€IS€SUPPLIED€BYÐ ¨+p$, ÐA€BOILER,€BUT€THE€PROCESS€MAY€BE€MODIFIED€IN€A€WAY€THATÏTHE€DEMAND€ON€THE€BOILER€IS€INCREASED€BY€A€FACTOR€OF€TWOÏOR€THREE€WITH€THE€EMISSIONS€FROM€THAT€BOILER€GOING€UPÏCORRESPONDINGLY€AND€WITH€A€SIGNIFICANT€INCREASE€INÏACTUAL€EMISSIONS.€€Ìà àà x àI€GUESS€MY€CONCERN€IS€IF€--€WITH€A€PAL€THATÏCOVERS€LESS€OF€A€--€LESS€THAN€ALL€OF€A€FACILITY,€DO€WEÏNEED€TO€BE€CONCERNED€ABOUT€PAL'S€THAT€ARE€DESIGNED€TOÏSORT€OF€THROW€A€LASSO€AROUND€THE€EQUIPMENT€THAT€ITSELFÏWON'T€HAVE€MUCH€OF€AN€INCREASE€AND€EXCLUDE€THE€EQUIPMENTÏTHAT€WILL€HAVE€A€VERY€SIGNIFICANT€INCREASE€FROM€THEÏCALCULATION?Ìà àà x àTHE€SECOND€FEATURE€ASSOCIATED€WITH€THAT€SORTÏOF€SUBFACILITY€PAL€IS€THE€ISSUE€OF€COMPLEXITY.€€HOW€MUCHÏOF€A€DEMAND€ON€TRACKING€WILL€THIS€PLACE€ON€THEÏREGULATORY€AGENCIES€IF€THEY€HAVE€TO€SORT€OF€KEEP€TRACKÏOF€LOTS€OF€LITTLE€CIRCLES€WITHIN€A€FACILITY,€EACH€OFÏWHICH€HAS€ITS€OWN€--€EACH€OF€WHICH€HAS€ITS€OWN€PAL?€€ANDÏWHAT€WILL€THAT€DO€TO€REPORTING€AND€RECORD-KEEPING€INÏTERMS€OF€TRACKING€EMISSIONS?€€SO,€I€GUESS,€THOSE€ARE€THEÏPOINTS€I€WANTED€TO€PUT€ON€THE€TABLE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€YOU'RE€SUGGESTING€THAT€THATÐ *È"* ÐWOULD€BE€MORE€COMPLICATED€THAN€HAVING€A€PERMIT€LEVEL€FORÐ ¨+p$, ÐEACH€AND€EVERY€PIECE€OF€EQUIPMENT€WHICH€OBVIOUSLY€TAKESÏRECORD-KEEPING?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€WELL,€THE€--€AS€I€UNDERSTANDÐ ˆ P ÐTHE€CURRENT€SYSTEM,€EQUIPMENT€BASED€--€THEÏEQUIPMENT-BASED€SYSTEM€TYPICALLY€DOESN'T€HAVE,€UNLESSÏTHEY'VE€TRIED€TO€NET€OUT€OF€REVIEW,€DOESN'T€HAVE€ANÏANNUAL€EMISSION€LIMIT€ASSOCIATED€WITH€IT.€€SURE,€I€COULDÏCONCEIVE€OF€SOME€SITUATIONS€WHICH€ARE€MORE€COMPLEX€THANÏTHIS,€BUT,€AGAIN,€IT€SEEMS€TO€ME€THAT€THE€MULTIPLE-PALÏAPPROACH€INTRODUCES€COMPLEXITY€INTO€A€TOPIC€THAT€WASÏINTENDED€TO€LESS€COMPLEX.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€ANY€OTHER€--€BERNIE?Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.BERNIE€PAUL:ó ó€€I€HAVE€A€COUPLE€OFÐ à ÐCOMMENTS€TO€OFFER€IN€RESPONSE€TO€DAVID'S€CONCERNS.€ÏFIRST€OF€ALL,€I€THINK€FOR€A€LOT€OF€INDUSTRY€TYPES€WHEREÏYOU'RE€MAKING€A€LOT€OF€SMALL€CHANGES,€THAT€SOME€BEÏTHROWN€INTO€THE€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROGRAM,€AND€OTHERSÏMAY€NOT;€THAT€IF€YOU€ESTABLISH€A€MANAGEMENT€SYSTEM€LIKEÏPAL'S€FOR€THOSE,€THAT€THOSE€SMALL€INCREMENTAL€CHANGESÏARE€NOT€LIKELY€TO€HAVE€THE€SORT€OF€DOWNSTREAM€EFFECTÏTHAT€YOU'RE€CONCERNED€ABOUT.€€I€ACKNOWLEDGE€THAT€THATÏCOULD€EXIST,€BUT€I€THINK€THAT€IS€A€VERY€RARE€SITUATION,ÏAT€LEAST€IN€OUR€INDUSTRY,€AND€I€WOULD€EXPECT€IN€A€LOT€OFÐ ¨+p$, ÐOTHER€INDUSTRIES€THAT€THAT€WOULD€ALSO€BE€TRUE.Ìà àà x àWITH€REGARD€TO€COMPLEXITY,€I€WAS€--€I€WASÏCONCERNED€ABOUT€HAVING€MULTIPLE€PAL'S€AT€A€PLANT€SITEÏBECAUSE€I€THINK€IT€WOULD€ELIMINATE,€PERHAPS,€SOMEÏCOMPLEXITY€FOR€OUR€OPERATIONS€MANAGEMENT€PEOPLE€IF€THEYÏKNOW€THAT€THEY€HAVE€TO€MANAGE€AN€EMISSIONS€CAP€FOR€AÏCERTAIN€AREA.€€THEY€DON'T€HAVE€TO€WORRY€ABOUT€WHAT'SÏGOING€ON€IN€A€DIFFERENT€PART€OF€THE€PLANT.€€LEAVE€THATÏUP€TO€SOME€OTHER€ORGANIZATION€TO€DO€THAT.€€SO€THAT€YOUÏWOULD€END€UP€WITH€PERHAPS€HIGHER€COMPLIANCE€BECAUSEÏPEOPLE€UNDERSTAND€WHAT€THEY€HAVE€TO€DO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€ANY€OTHER€ISSUES€ORÐ p8 ÐCOMMENTS€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THOSE€TOPICS€OR€ANY€OTHERÏAPPLICABILITY€ISSUES?€€I€KNOW€ONLY€MENTION€THAT€WITHÏRESPECT€TO€THE€PACKAGE€THAT€WE€WERE€GIVEN€THERE€WAS€AÏPROVISION€IN€IT,€OR€PROPOSAL,€REFERENCING€THE€CMAÏEXHIBIT"B."€€I€CAN€SUMMARIZE€VERY€EASILY€FOR€YOU€THOSEÏCOMMENTS€YESTERDAY.€€THERE€WAS€ONE€FOR€AND€ONE€TOTALLYÏAGAINST,€AND€THAT€WAS€ABOUT€AS€LONG€AS€THE€COMMENT€ONÏBOTH€OF€THOSE€TOOK,€SO€--.Ìà àà x àDAVID?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€JUST€TO€FOLLOW€UP,€IS€THEREÐ *È"* ÐANY€INTEREST€IN€DIALOGUE€ON€THIS€QUESTION€OF€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐENFORCEABILITY€OF€THE€FUTURE€ACTUALS?€€I€WOULD€BEÏINTERESTED€IF€THERE€IS€--€IF€THERE€ARE€INDUSTRY€FOLKSÏWHO€WANT€TO€ADDRESS€THAT€ISSUE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€WOULD€ANYBODY€--€LET'SÐ 0 ø ÐTAKE€THAT€UP,€AND€THEN€WE'LL€GO€TO€THE€OTHER€COMMENTS.Ìà àà x àBILL?Ìà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERS:ó ó€€I'LL€MAKE€A€BRIEF€COMMENT€ANDÐ (ð  ÐTHEN€DEFER€TO€HENRY€BECAUSE€I€SEE€HIM€REACHING€FOR€THEÏCARD€AS€WELL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€YOU€NEED€TO€HELP€HENRY€OUT.€€HEÐ  è ÐONLY€HAS€ONE€ARM.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERS:ó ó€€OH,€THAT'S€RIGHT.€€IT€WASN'TÐ p8 ÐFROM€ANY€ARM-TWISTING€TO€SUPPORT€òòWEPCOóó,€I'M€SURE.Ð à Ðà àà x àTHE€BIGGEST€PROBLEM€WITH€THAT€IS€THAT€ITÏWOULD€BE€VERY€DIFFICULT€TO€TAKE€SOME€CAPPED€EMISSIONÏLIMIT€ON€THE€ACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUAL,€IN€PART€BECAUSE€ATÏLEAST€UNDER€THE€CURRENT€òòWEPCOóó€RULE€--€AND€I€THINK€IF€YOUÐ ¸!€  ÐEXTEND€IT€TO€OTHER€INDUSTRY€SOURCES,€IT€SHOULD€BEÏEXTENDED€SIMILARLY€--€IS€THAT€WE€HAVE€THE€BENEFITÏCONSISTENT€WITH€THE€EXISTING€RULES€TO€REDUCE€FROM€THEÏPROJECTED€FUTURE€ACTUAL€THE€DEMAND€GROWTH€THAT€WE€WOULDÏOTHERWISE€BE€MEETING€ANYWAY.€€Ìà àà x àAND€YOU€CAN'T€CLEARLY€PROJECT€THAT,€KNOW€ITÐ ¨+p$, ÐWITH€COMPLETE€ACCURACY.€€AS€A€RESULT,€TRYING€TO€TAKEÏSOME€FIRM€CAP€ON€WHAT€YOUR€EMISSIONS€WOULD€BE€WOULD€SORTÏOF€DEFEAT€THE€PURPOSE€OF€THE€òòWEPCOóó€ACTUAL-TO-FUTUREÐ ˆ P ÐACTUAL€METHODOLOGY€AND€BE€EXCEEDINGLY€DIFFICULT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€SO€IF€THE€DEMAND€GROWTH€WEREÐ Ø   ÐELIMINATED,€THAT€WOULD€AVOID€THAT€PROBLEM?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€YEAH,€DAVID€--Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERS:ó ó€€RIGHT.€€SO€WHICH€ONE€DO€WEРИ  ÐELIMINATE?€€I€THINK€YOUR€SUGGESTION,€WHICH€ISN'T€THERE,ÏOUGHT€TO€BE€ELIMINATED.€€SIMPLE€ENOUGH.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€HENRY,€DO€YOU€WANT€TO€--Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€YEAH,€I'LL€JUST€MAKE€A€COMMENT.€Ð p8 ÐI€MEAN,€AS€DAVID€WELL€KNOWS,€HIS€ACTUAL-TO-ACTUALÏAPPROACH€IS€IDENTICAL€TO€THE€CURRENT€ACTUAL-TO-POTENTIALÏAPPROACH.€€UNDER€AN€ACTUAL-TO-POTENTIAL€REGIME,€YOU€CANÏALWAYS€AVOID€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€BY€CAPPING€YOUR€PASTÏACTUAL€EMISSIONS.€€SO€THIS€REALLY€ISN'T€ANYTHING€NEW,ÏAND,€AS€EVERYONE€UNDERSTANDS,€IT€IS€THAT€CAPPING€ONÏCAPACITY€WHICH€HAS€CAUSED€PEOPLE€GREAT€ANXIETY€AND€WASÏONE€OF€THE€MAJOR€MOTIVATING€FORCES€FOR€ALL€OF€THESEÏDISCUSSIONS€FROM€INDUSTRY'S€STANDPOINT.Ìà àà x àGOING€BEYOND€THAT,€I€THINK€THAT,€YOU€KNOW,ÏAS€BILL€WAS€MENTIONING,€IT'S€„„€THE€NECESSITY€FOR€THEREÐ ¨+p$, ÐTO€BE€A€RELATIONSHIP€BETWEEN€THE€PHYSICAL€CHANGE€AND€THEÏFUTURE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€MAKES€CAPPING€PAST€ACTUALSÏINAPPROPRIATE.€€UNDER€THE€òòWEPCOóó€RULE,€FOR€EXAMPLE,€THEÐ ˆ P ÐQUESTION€IS€POSED€WHETHER€OR€NOT€THE€INCREASE€INÏUTILIZATION€COULD€HAVE€BEEN€ACCOMMODATED€DURING€THEÏREPRESENTATIVE€BASELINE€YEAR.€€I€THINK€THAT'S€A€VERYÏEASY€TEST€TO€APPLY.€€Ìà àà x àIT€BASICALLY€SAYS€IF,€FOR€EXAMPLE,€YOU€LOSEÏA€PUMP,€AND€DURING€THE€REPRESENTATIVE€BASELINE€YEAR€THATÏPUMP€WAS€OPERATING€IN€A€MANNER€THAT€WOULD€ALLOW€YOU€TOÏFULLY€UTILIZE€THE€UNIT,€YOU€WOULD€NOT€PROJECT€ANYÏINCREASED€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS€IN€THE€INCREASE€INÏUTILIZATION€TO€THAT€PUMP€BECAUSE€THAT€INCREASEDÏUTILIZATION€COULD€HAVE€BEEN€ACCOMMODATED€DURING€THEÏPREVIOUS€BASELINE€YEAR.€€SO€THAT'S€--€THAT'S€THE€ANSWER,ÏAND,€OF€COURSE,€YOU'VE€REALLY€BROUGHT€US€BACK€TO€WHEREÏWE€BEGAN€THIS€ENTIRE€PROCESS,€YOU€KNOW,€WITH€YOURÏSUGGESTION.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THIS€IS€NOT€CONTINUING€THEÐ %Ð$ ÐDEBATE€THAT€WE€STARTED€FOUR€YEARS€AGO,€DAVID,€IF€YOUÏWANT€TO€TRY€TO€ADDRESS€THAT€BECAUSE€I,€YOU€KNOW,€I€THINKÏYOU€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH,€I€JUST€THINK€THAT€WEÐ ¨+p$, ÐNEED€TO€BE€CLEAR€ABOUT€WHAT€IT€IS€THAT'S€BEING€PROPOSED,ÏAND€THIS€WHOLE€CONCEPT€OF€FUTURE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONS,€GIVENÏTHE€RESPONSE€WE'VE€HEARD,€HAS€TO€BE€ACKNOWLEDGED€AS€INÏMANY€CASES€A€FICTION.€€IT€IS€--€IT€IS€A€PROJECTION€WHICHÏTHE€APPLICANT€WANTS€TO€HAVE€RECOGNIZED€BY€THE€REVIEWINGÏAUTHORITY,€BUT€DOESN'T€WANT€TO€LIVE€WITH€ITSELF.€€AND€IFÏIT'S€CLEAR€THAT€THE€APPLICANT€DOESN'T€WANT€TO€LIVE€WITHÏTHAT€PROJECTION,€THEN€WE€SHOULD€GET€IT€OUT€OF€THEÏPROCESS€BECAUSE€ALL€IT€IS,€IS€OBFUSCATION.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ERNIE?Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.ROSENBERG:ó ó€€I'M€GOING€TO€HAVE€--€Ð È Ðà àà x àERNIE€ROSENBERG,€WITH€OCCIDENTAL.€Ìà àà x à„„€A€FAIRLY€RADICAL€SUGGESTION,€WHICH€ISÏTHAT€PERHAPS€EPA€DOESN'T€HAVE€TO€NAIL€DOWN€EXACTLY€HOWÏTHIS€IS€GOING€TO€BE€DONE€ACROSS€THE€BOARD.€€ONE€OF€THEÏPROBLEMS€THAT€WE'RE€HAVING€WITH€APPLICABILITY€IS€THATÏTHERE'S€SO€MUCH€DIFFERENCE€BETWEEN€DIFFERENT€KINDS€OFÏINDUSTRIES,€BOTH€IN€TERMS€OF€WHAT€THE€VARIABILITY€IS€OFÏTHEIR€EMISSIONS€AND€IN€TERMS€OF€HOW€MUCH€YOU€CAN€NAILÏDOWN€IN€TERMS€OF€EITHER€PAST€OR€FUTURE€EMISSIONS€ANDÏTHAT€A€ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL€APPROACH€PROBABLY€DOESN'T€MAKEÏANY€SENSE€AND€THAT€THE€AGENCY€SHOULD€ALLOW€THE€STATES€TOÏADOPT€DIFFERENT€APPROACHES€SO€LONG€AS€THE€BASELINE€FROMÐ ¨+p$, ÐWHICH€YOU'RE€STARTING€IS€REPRESENTATIVE€OF€THATÏFACILITY'S€ACTUAL€OPERATION,€AND€YOU'RE€NOT€CAUSING€AÏCONSTRICTION€OF€ITS€PRODUCTION,€PRODUCTIVE€CAPACITY,€ANDÏTHAT€THE€FUTURE€POINT€THAT€YOU'RE€MEASURING€THE€INCREASEÏAGAINST€IS€ENFORCEABLE€AND€THAT€--€SO€LET'S€LOOK€AT€THEÏENTIRE€PACKAGE€OF€THINGS€THAT€EPA'S€DOING€AND€NOT€LOOKÏAT€NSR€IN€A€VACUUM.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€TITLE€V€PROGRAM€AND€THE€COMPLIANCEÏASSURANCE€MONITORING€PROGRAM,€WHEN€THEY€ARE€IN€PLACE,ÏPROVIDE€AN€AWFUL€LOT€OF€ASSURANCE€PLUS€AIR€QUALITYÏTRACKING€FROM€THE€IMPROVED€MONITORING€THAT€YOU'VE€NEVERÏBEEN€ABLE€TO€HAVE€BEFORE€SO€THAT€YOU'RE€GOING€TO€HAVE€AÏDIFFERENT€SET€OF€MECHANISMS€SO€THAT€YOU€DON'T€HAVE€TOÏCONFOUND€THE€NSR€PROCESS€WITH€THE€AIR€QUALITY€MANAGEMENTÏPROCESS€AND€VICE€VERSA.Ìà àà x àAND€WHEN€WE€TALKED€ABOUT€THIS€AT€CMA,€WEÏCOULDN'T€EVEN€COME€UP€WITH€A€SINGLE€APPROACH€WITHIN€CMAÏTHAT€REALLY€ADDRESSED€ALL€THE€VARIABILITY€WITHIN€THEÏCHEMICAL€INDUSTRY,€AND€I€SUGGEST€THAT€EPA€SIMPLY€STEPÏBACK€FROM€THIS€AND€MAKE€THAT€--€REPRESENT€--€AND€MAKEÏTHOSE€THE€CRITERIA:€€A€STARTING€POINT€THAT'SÏREPRESENTATIVE€AND€A€FUTURE€POINT€THAT'S€ENFORCEABLE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ICLAL?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€I'M€GOING€TO€MAKE€AÐ 8 ÐRECOMMENDATION€TO€NSR€REFORM€COMMITTEE€TO€EVALUATE€SITEÏBY€SITE€THE€ACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUAL€METHODOLOGY€WITH€THEÏPOTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€--€FUTURE€POTENTIAL€METHODOLOGYÏWITH€ACTUAL€--€CREDITING€ACTUAL€EMISSION€DECREASES€ANDÏLOOK€AT€THE€--€COMPARE€THINGS€FOR€COMPLEXITY,ÏIMPLEMENTATION,€EASE€OF€IMPLEMENTATION,€ENFORCEMENTÏISSUES,€EASE€OF€ENFORCEABILITY,€ASSURANCE€OF€PROTECTIONÏOF€AIR€QUALITY,€AND€SEE€WHICH€METHODOLOGY€WOULD€BE€THEÏBEST€METHODOLOGY.Ìà àà x àI€THINK€THAT€WE€CAN€REACH€A€RESOLUTION€INÏTHAT.€€I€REALLY€HAVE€TRULY€CONCERNS€ON€ACTUAL-TO-FUTUREÏACTUAL€EMISSIONS€WITH€RESPECT€TO€GOING€TO€A€LOCAL€AREAÏTRYING€TO€PERMIT€A€FACILITY.€€THAT€WOULD€RAISE€A€LOT€OFÏEYEBROWS,€YOU€KNOW,€SAYING€THAT€SOMEBODY€HAS€1,000€TONSÏOF€EMISSIONS€POTENTIAL€ALLOWED€IN€THEIR€PERMIT,€BUT€THEYÏWILL€ONLY€EMIT,€YOU€KNOW,€250€TONS.€€WHAT€ASSURANCE€ISÏTHERE€WHEN€THE€PERMIT€SAYS€YOU€EMIT€UP€TO€1,000€TONS?€ÏSO€I€WOULD€RECOMMEND€THAT€WE€CAREFULLY€EVALUATE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€THINK€IN€TERMS€OF€THE€PROCESSÐ °&x& ÐWHERE€WE€ARE€THAT'S€A€GOOD€RECOMMENDATION.€€IT€PROBABLYÏREQUIRES€NEW€JERSEY€TO€MAKE€THAT€IN€A€WRITTEN€COMMENT€TOÏTHE€AGENCY€WHERE€THEY€CERTAINLY€WILL€DO€THAT.€€AS€AÐ ¨+p$, ÐFACA,€WE€REALLY€DON'T€HAVE€A€MECHANISM€FOR€COMINGÏTOGETHER€AGAIN.€€Ìà àà x àBUT,€AGAIN,€TO€THE€EXTENT€OTHER€PEOPLE€HEREÏON€THE€FACA€OR€INTERESTED€PARTIES€WOULD€LIKE€TO€ÌCOMMENT€ON€THAT€IN€THEIR€WRITTEN€COMMENTS€TO€THE€AGENCY,ÏI€WOULD€HOPE€THAT,€ICLAL,€THEY€COULD€CONTACT€YOU,€ANDÏYOU€COULD€GIVE€THEM€--Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€YES.РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€--€THE€NECESSARY€INFORMATION€SOÐ x@  ÐTHAT€THEY€MIGHT€DO€THAT.€Ìà àà x àDAVID?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€JUST€ONE€FURTHER€COMPLICATIONÐ p8 ÐTHAT'S€POINTED€UP€BY€ICLAL'S€COMMENT.€€IF€YOU€HAVE€AÏFACILITY€THAT€HAS€ONE€OF€THESE€FUTURE€ACTUALÏPROJECTIONS--€SAY,€250€IN€A€PERMIT€THAT€ALLOWSÏ1,000--WHAT€OPPORTUNITIES€ARE€THERE€FOR€EMISSIONSÏREDUCTION€CREDITS€OR€OPEN-MARKET€CREDITS€IF€THEY€GOÏBELOW€THIS€1,000€AND€GO€IN€THE€RANGE€OF€ABOVE€250€BUTÏBELOW€2,000€(SIC).€€ARE€WE€IN€A€SITUATION€WHERE€THEY€AREÏACTUALLY€CURRENCY€FOR€DOING€SOMETHING€THAT€THEY€ALREADYÏSAID€THEY€WOULD€DO?€€Ìà àà x àIT'S€JUST€ANOTHER€RAMIFICATION€OF€THISÏDISCONNECT€BETWEEN€ACTUALS€FOR€PURPOSE€OF€APPLICABILITYÐ ¨+p$, ÐAND€WHAT'S€PERMIT€ALLOWABLE.€€I'M€NOT€SURE€THAT'S€BEENÏTHOUGHT€THROUGH€AS€WELL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€IF€THERE€ARE€NO€OTHERÐ ˆ P ÐAPPLICABILITY€COMMENTS,€WHY€DON'T€WE€MOVE€ON€THEN€ANDÏSEE€WHETHER€THERE€ARE€GENERAL€COMMENTS€FROM€THE€GROUP€INÏTERMS€OF€OUR€NEXT€TOPIC,€WHICH€IS€NSR€TECHNOLOGYÏREQUIREMENTS€AND€UNDEMONSTRATED€TECHNOLOGY€APPLICATIONS.Ìà àà x àTHERE€WAS€NOT€A€GREAT€DEAL€OF€DISCUSSIONÏWITH€RESPECT€TO€THESE€ISSUES€YESTERDAY.€€THERE€WASÏGENERAL€REFERENCE€TO€THE€TOP-DOWN€BACT€STATEMENTS€IN€THEÏPACKAGE,€AND,€AGAIN,€THERE€WERE€CERTAIN€--€THERE€WEREÏPEOPLE€SUPPORTING€AND€OPPOSING.€€BUT€I€THINK,€INÏGENERAL,€THESE€ISSUES€ARE€OPEN€FOR€DISCUSSION€TO€THEÏEXTENT€THAT€ANY€COMMITTEE€MEMBER€WOULD€LIKE€TO€EITHERÏRAISE€ISSUES€OF€CLARIFICATION€OR€EXPAND€ON€COMMENTS€ORÏRAISE€COMMENTS€THAT€THEY€THINK€ARE€APPROPRIATE€IN€THEÏFEATURE.Ìà àà x àHENRY?Ìà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€YEAH,€I€WANTED€A€POINT€OFÐ %Ð$ ÐCLARIFICATION.€€IN€READING€WHAT€YOU'RE€DOING€ON€BACT€ANDÏTOP-DOWN€BACT,€AM€I€CORRECT€IN€READING€THAT€BASICALLYÏWHAT€YOU€HAVE€SAID€IS€THAT€WHAT€WE'VE,€YOU€KNOW,€ALLÏKNOWN€TO€LOVE€AS€TOP-DOWN€BACT€IS€THE€WAY€IN€WHICH€BACTÐ ¨+p$, ÐANALYSES€WILL€BE€CONDUCTED€IN€THOSE€CASES€WHERE€EPA€HADÏTHE€PERMIT€PROGRAM€UNDER€PART€52€AND€THOSE€CASES€WHEREÏSTATES€DELEGATED€THE€PERMIT€PROGRAM€UNDER€PART€52?Ìà àà x àWHEREAS,€THOSE€STATES€THAT€HAVE€SIP€PSDÏPROGRAMS€WOULD€HAVE€GREATER€LATITUDE€TO€WAIVE€THEÏFACTORS€AND€WOULD€NOT€NECESSARILY€HAVE€TO€APPLY€AÏTOP-DOWN€APPROACH€BUT€COULD€COMPARE€DIFFERENTÏTECHNOLOGIES€WITHIN€THE€RANGE€IF€THEY€CONSIDER€THEÏENTIRE€RANGE€AND€WEIGHT€THE€FACTORS€AS€THEY€DEEMEDÏAPPROPRIATE€FOR€THEIR€OWN€LOCAL€NEEDS.Ìà àà x àIS€THAT€DISTINCTION€SOMETHING€THAT€YOU€WEREÏPROPOSING,€OR€ISN'T€IT?Ìà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€I€HAD€HOPED€IT€WAS€CLEAR.Ð à Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€YEAH,€JUST€GO€AHEAD.Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€YES,€THAT'S€A€VERY€ACCURATEÐ h0 ÐPICTURE€OF€WHAT€WE'RE€TRYING€TO€DO,€I€THINK.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€THE€KEY€IS€IN€THE€STATES€WITHÐ ¸!€  ÐA€SIP-APPROVED€PROGRAM,€THAT€THEY€DEMONSTRATE€THATÏTHEY'VE€MET€THE€TWO€CORE€CRITERIA;€THAT€IS,€THEY'VEÏLOOKED€AT€THE€SPECTRUM€OF€AVAILABLE€CONTROLS,€INCLUDINGÏTHE€MOST€STRINGENT.€€AND€IF€THEY€DO€NOT€CHOOSE€THE€MOSTÏSTRINGENT€OR€THE€MORE€STRINGENT€TECHNOLOGIES,€THEY€NEEDÏTO€PROVIDE€DOCUMENTATION€AND€JUSTIFICATION€GIVEN€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐSTATUTORY€ENVIRONMENTAL,€ENERGY,€AND€ECONOMIC€CRITERIA.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BILL?РਠÐà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€AND€HOW€IS€THAT€DIFFERENT€FROMÐ ˆ P ÐTHE€TOP-DOWN€APPROACH?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€YOU€COULD€TAKE€IT€FROMÐ Ø   ÐBOTTOM-UP€OR€INSIDE-OUT€OR€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€BUT€DON'T€YOU€--€IF€YOU€--Ð (ð  ÐUNDER€BOTH€SCENARIOS,€DON'T€YOU€HAVE€TO€EXPLAIN€WHY€YOUÏHAVEN'T€IDENTIFIED€THE€MOST€STRINGENT€IF€YOU€CHOOSEÏSOMETHING€LESS€STRINGENT€--€WHETHER€YOU€STARTED€FROM€THEÏTOP€OR€STARTED€FROM€THE€BOTTOM?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€THAT'S€CORRECT.€Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€SO€HOW€IS€THAT€DIFFERENTÐ à ÐFROM€THE€TOP-DOWN€APPROACH?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€WELL,€THERE€ISN'T€THAT€MUCH€OFÐ h0 ÐA€DIFFERENCE,€ONLY€THAT€TOP-DOWN€REALLY€FOCUSES€IN€ONÏTHE€TOP€THAT€IS€PUT€IN€THE€TABLE€FIRST.€€THE€ANALYSIS€ISÏDONE.€€WHEREAS,€THERE€MAY€BE€OTHER€APPROACHES€THAT€DON'TÏNECESSARILY€START€AT€THE€TOP€BUT€STILL€RECOGNIZE€THEÏMORE€STRINGENT€TECHNOLOGIES€AND€ADDRESS€THOSEÏTECHNOLOGIES€ALSO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€WELL,€ALSO,€YOU€DON'T€HAVE€TOÐ *È"* ÐMAKE€A€FINDING€THAT€THE€TOP€IS€INFEASIBLE€BASED€UPON€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐFACTORS.€€YOU€CAN€MAKE€YOUR€SELECTION€ON€OTHER€CRITERIAÏTHAN€FEASIBILITY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€PRAVEEN?Ð ˆ P Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€JUST€A€QUICK€QUESTION.€€IT€HAS€TOÐ 0 ø ÐDO€WITH€THE€CLEARINGHOUSE,€AND€THE€POINT€IS€BEING€MADEÏTHAT€EPA'S€PROPOSING€MANDATORY€SUBMITTAL€OF€BACTÏDETERMINATIONS.€€AS€A€PRACTICAL€MATTER,€HOW€WOULD€THATÏHAPPEN?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€DENNIS?Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€WELL,€THIS€IS€A€òòCLEAN€AIR€ACTóóÐ  è ÐREQUIREMENT.€€IT€ACTUALLY€CAME€OUT€OF€THE€òò1990€CLEAN€AIRÐ È ÐACTóó,€AND€THERE'S€BEEN€A€LOT€OF€DISCUSSION,€I€KNOW,€INÐ p8 ÐTHE€SIP€WORLD€ABOUT€WHAT€THE€STATES€PUT€IN€THEIR€SIP'S.€ÏCAN€THEY€IMPOSE€REGULATIONS€UPON€THEMSELVES€AND€THATÏSORT€OF€THING.€€BUT€AS€A€PRACTICAL€MATTER,€THE€òòCLEAN€AIRÐ h0 ÐACTóó€SAYS€THAT€THEY€SHOULD€BE€REPORTED€TO€THEÐ  Ø ÐRACT/BACT/LAER€CLEARINGHOUSE,€SO€THAT'S€WHAT€WE€SAID.ÏSTATES€HAVE€THE€RESPONSIBILITY€TO€SEE€THAT€IT€ISÏREPORTED.€Ìà àà x àNOW€WHAT€WE€TRIED€TO€DO€IN€THE€REGULATIONSÏIS€PUT€IN€ENOUGH€ALTITUDE€THAT€ALLOWS€THE€STATES€TO€HAVEÏSOURCES€REPORT€THAT€INFORMATION.€€THERE€ARE€STILL€SOMEÏOUTSTANDING€ISSUES€RELATIVE€TO€HOW€YOU€Q.A.€THATÐ ¨+p$, ÐINFORMATION,€HOW€IT€GETS€LOGGED€INTO€THE€SYSTEM.€€AND€WEÏTRIED€TO€PUT€IN€A€LITTLE€BIT€OF€LANGUAGE€THERE€THATÏINDICATES€THAT€THE€EVOLUTION€OF€THE€COMMUNICATION€AGE€ISÏALSO€GOING€TO€IMPACT€THIS€WHOLE€PROCESS€BECAUSE€EPA€ISÏIN€THE€PROCESS€OF€MOVING€A€LOT€OF€ITS€COMMUNICATIONS€ANDÏINFORMATION€TRANSFER€TO€THE€INTERNET€SYSTEM.€€AND€THEÏRACT/BACT/LAER€CLEARINGHOUSE€WOULD€BE,€IN€FACT,€IMPACTEDÏBY€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€DOES€THE€PROPOSAL€THEN€REQUIRE€AÐ x@  ÐCERTAIN€TIME€LIMIT€BEFORE€WHICH€THE€STATE€AND€THE€SOURCEÏHAVE€TO€SUBMIT€THE€INFORMATION€TO€THE€CLEARINGHOUSE?€ÏTHOSE'S€A€TIME€PERIOD,€I'M€WONDERING?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€PRAVEEN,€IS€YOUR€CONCERN€THATÐ à ÐTHE€STATES€WON'T€OR€THE€STATES€SHOULD€NOT€BE€REQUIRED€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€NO,€THE€STATES€SHOULD€BEÐ h0 ÐREQUIRED,€BUT€I€WAS€JUST€TRYING€TO€FOUND€OUT€THEÏCURRENTNESS,€SO€TO€SPEAK,€OF€THE€CLEARINGHOUSE.€€YOUÏWANT€THE€INFORMATION€IN€TIME.Ìà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€YEAH.€€THERE€IS€--€THERE€IS€AÐ %Ð$ ÐTIME€REQUIREMENT€IN€THE€PROVISIONS,€AND€I€THINK€IT'SÏNINETY€DAYS?Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€IT'S€SIXTY€DAYS.Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€SIXTY€DAYS,€OKAY.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€WE€COULD€--Ð 8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð ਠÐà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€YEAH,€WE€COULD€WRITE€WITHINÐ ˆ P ÐTHE€REGULATION€THAT€THE€PERMIT€IS€NOT€VALID€UNTIL€IT'SÏSUBMITTED.€€I€DON'T€THINK€WE'D€WANT€TO€DO€THAT,€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€NO,€NO,€NO.Ð €H  Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€--€BUT€I€WOULD€HOPE€THAT€THEÐ (ð  ÐSTATES€COULD€WORK€AMONG€THEMSELVES€TO€ENSURE€THAT€ASÏEXPEDITIOUSLY€AS€PRACTICABLE€THEY€CAN€GET€THE€PERMITS€TOÏUS.€€I€MEAN,€THIS€IS€A€TOOL€FOR€THE€STATES€AND€FOR€THEÏAPPLICANTS€AND€FOR€THE€PUBLIC.€€IT'S€NOT€FOR€EPA.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ICLAL,€DO€YOU€HAVE€--Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€I€JUST€WANT€TO€FOLLOW€UP€ON€WHATÐ à ÐPRAVEEN€IS€SAYING.€€WE€IN€THE€STATE€OF€NEW€JERSEY€WEÏDRAW€PLANS,€WORK€PLANS,€WITH€EPA€ON€WHAT€WE'RE€GOING€TOÏDO,€HOW€WE'RE€GOING€TO€IMPLEMENT€OUR€SIP,€AND€THIS€ITEMÏIS€WITHIN€OUR€WORK€PLAN€WHICH€IS€CALLED€THE€"NATIONALÏPERFORMANCE€PARTNERSHIP€AGREEMENT"€RIGHT€NOW.€€Ìà àà x àAND€WE€CHOSE€NOT€TO€PUT€THIS€IN€OUR€RULESÏBECAUSE€WE€--€OUR€RULES€DO€NOT€REGULATE€OURSELVES.€€THEYÏDO€REGULATE€THE€INDUSTRIES€IN€THE€STATE.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€SECOND€THING€I€WANT€TO€--€WELL,€IS€THEREÏA€WAY€OF€FACILITATING€THE€INFORMATION€FLOW€INTO€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐBACT/LAER€CLEARINGHOUSE€BECAUSE€ALL€PSD€ANDÏNONATTAINMENT€PERMIT€DECISIONS€GO€TO€EPA€REGIONS€ANYWAYÏTO€BE€PUBLISHED€IN€THE€òòFEDERAL€REGISTERóó,€AND€COULD€WEÐ ˆ P ÐTIE€IN€THE€BACT/LAER€CLEARINGHOUSE€WITH€THE€òòFEDERALÐ 0 ø ÐREGISTERóó€PUBLICATION€BECAUSE€THEN€YOU€DON'T€MISS€BECAUSEÐ Ø   ÐALL€DECISION€GO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€I€JUST€WANT€TO€POINT€OUT€THATÐ (ð  ÐNOT€ALL€REGIONS€ADHERE€TO€THAT€PROCESS.€€THERE€ARE€MANYÏREGIONS€IN€WHICH€THE€STATE€WILL€ISSUE€A€PERMIT,€ANDÏTHEIR€REGION€MAY€NOT€EVEN€RECEIVE€A€COPY€OF€THAT€PERMIT.€ÏIT€DEPENDS€UPON€WHAT€TYPE€OF€OPERATING€AGREEMENTS€THEÏREGION€HAS€WITH€THE€INDIVIDUAL€STATES.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€BUT€IT'S€IN€PART€1,€40€CFR€124.€Ð à Ð"EPA€MUST€BE€NOTIFIED€OF€PSD€PERMIT€DECISIONS.€€PSDÏPERMIT€NOTIFICATION€MUST€GO€TO€THE€REGION."€€I€MEANÏTHAT'S€A€RULE€REQUIREMENT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€BUT€EPA€IS€IMPLEMENTING€AÐ ¸!€  ÐDIFFERENTIAL€OVERSIGHT,€AND,€AGAIN,€THAT€IS€DEPENDING€ONÏWHAT€AGREEMENT€IT€HAS€THE€--€THE€REGION€HAS€WITH€THEÏSTATE.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð X( !( Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BILL?Ð *È"* Ðà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€THANKS,€PAT.€€I€WANT€TO€EXPLOREÐ ¨+p$, ÐA€COMMENT€YOU€MADE€IN€THE€SUMMARY€JUST€TO€MAKE€SURE€ORÏTO€CLARIFY€TO€MAKE€CERTAIN€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€YOU€CAN'T€HOLD€ME€RESPONSIBLEÐ ˆ P ÐFOR€SOMETHING€I€DIDN'T€DO,€BUT€THAT'S€OKAY.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€THIS€IS€GET-BACK€TIME.Ð Ø   Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€YEAH.Ð €H  Ðà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€I€THOUGHT€YOU€HAD€SAID€IN€YOURÐ (ð  ÐSUMMARY€OF€THE€HEARING€YESTERDAY€THAT€CERTAIN€PEOPLEÏOPPOSED€THE€TOP-DOWN€BACT€PROVISION,€AND€IF€THAT'S€TRUE,ÏI€THINK€I€WOULD€LIKE€TO€EXPLORE€THAT€SOMETIME€AT€THISÏMEETING.€€BECAUSE€WHEN€WE€MET€LAST,€WHICH€WAS€PROBABLYÏABOUT€EIGHT€YEARS€AGO,€WE€TALKED€A€LOT€ABOUT€TOP-DOWNÏBACT.€€AND€THE€INDUSTRY€CONCERNS€AT€THE€TIME,€IÏREMEMBER,€WERE€THAT€THERE€WASN'T€SUFFICIENT€AND€TIMELYÏGUIDANCE€TO€PROMPT€GOOD€DECISIONS€BY€REGULATORS,€AND€WEÏTALKED€ABOUT€GETTING€THE€BACT/LAER€CLEARINGHOUSE€INÏSUFFICIENT€ORDER€TO€ADDRESS€THAT€CONCERN€HEAD-ON,€AND€WEÏEVEN€ON€THIS€END€RAISED€OUR€HANDS€AND€SAID€WE€WILL€DOÏWHATEVER€IT€TAKES,€INCLUDING€A€MANDATORY€REQUIREMENT,€TOÏHELP€GET€THAT€BACT/LAER€CLEARINGHOUSE€IN€ORDER.€€BECAUSEÏTHE€INSTALLATION€OF€VERY€GOOD€CONTROLS,€AT€LEAST€THEÏINITIAL€CONSIDERATION€OF€VERY€GOOD€CONTROLS,€IS€REALLY€AÏBEDROCK€PRINCIPLE€OF€THIS€WHOLE€REGULATION.€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àAND€IF€WE'RE€NOW€HEARING€--€AND€I€DON'TÏKNOW.€€WE'RE€CLARIFYING.€€IF€WE'RE€NOW€HEARING€THAT€SOMEÏARE€WALKING€AWAY€FROM€THIS€VERY€IMPORTANT€NOTION€OFÏTOP-DOWN€BACT,€THEN€I'D€LIKE€TO€EXPLORE€WHY€ESPECIALLYÏSINCE€WE€ARE,€GIVEN€DIMINISHED€RESOURCES,€STILL€WILLINGÏTO€MAKE€YOUR€JOB€OF€ANALYZING€AND€OF€RELYING€UPON€THEÏBEST€TECHNOLOGIES€EASIER.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€HENRY?РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€BILL,€YOU€MAY€NOT€HAVE€HEARDÐ x@  ÐUS,€BUT€FROM€THE€VERY€BEGINNING€OUR€CONCERN€WITHÏTOP-DOWN€BACT,€OUR€OVERRIDING€CONCERN,€WAS€THE€FACT€THATÏIT€WAS€A€SET€OF€CRITERIA€THAT€REQUIRED€THE€STATES€TOÏWEIGHT€CERTAIN€FACTORS€MORE€HEAVILY€THAN€OTHER€FACTORSÏAND€THAT€IT€PROHIBITED€A€COMPARISON€BETWEEN€TECHNOLOGIESÏAND€THE€STATES€DETERMINING€WHICH€WAS€BEST€WITHIN€THEÏPERMISSIBLE€RANGE.€€SO€THAT€A€GOOD€CLEARINGHOUSE€OR€BACTÏCLEARINGHOUSE€DIDN'T€SOLVE€THAT€PROBLEM.€Ìà àà x àNOW€WHAT€I€SEE€THAT€THE€AGENCY€HAS€PROPOSED,ÏIT€IS€RESPONSIVE€TO€OUR€CORE€CONCERNS€AT€LEAST€WITHÏRESPECT€TO€THE€STATES€THAT€HAVE€SIP€AUTHORITY.€€AND€WEÏCLEARLY€ARE€NOT€PREPARED€AND€HAVE€NEVER€BEEN€PREPARED€TOÏENDORSE€TOP-DOWN€BACT€WHICH€HAS€AS€ITS€CORE€CRITERIA€INÏTERMS€OF€WEIGHING€A€FEASIBILITY€STANDARD€AND€LOOKING€ATÐ ¨+p$, ÐEACH€TECHNOLOGY€ALONE€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THE€OTHER€FACTORSÏAS€SOMETHING€THAT€WAS€ACCEPTABLE.Ìà àà x àSO,€I€MEAN,€WE€LIKE€THE€WAY€THE€AGENCY€HASÏMOVED,€BUT€THAT'S€IN€RESPONSE€TO€COMMENTS€THAT€I€THINK€AÏNUMBER€OF€US€HAD€CONSISTENTLY€MADE€THROUGHOUT€THISÏPROCESS.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BILL,€I€THINK€THAT'S€TRUE,€ANDÐ (ð  ÐTHAT'S€HOW€I€INTENDED€TO€CHARACTERIZE€THIS:€€THAT€THEÏCONCERN€IS€THE€CLARIFICATION€HENRY€WAS€TALKING€ABOUT,ÏTHAT€THE€REFERENCE€TO€THIS€IN€THE€AGENCY'S€PACKAGE€ISÏHOW€IT'S€BEING€HANDLED€IN€THIS€PACKAGE€AND€NOT€SORT€OFÏòòCARTE€BLANCHEóó€APPROVAL,€AND€I€THINK€THAT'S€WHAT€HENRY'SÐ p8 ÐJUST€CLARIFIED€NOW.€€SO€I€DON'T€THINK€ANYBODY€WASÏOBJECTING€TO€THE€--€WHAT€YOU€BUSINESS€WAS€A€WAY€TOÏADDRESS€THESE€ISSUES,€BUT€AT€THE€SAME€TIME€THEY'RE€NOTÏJUST€SAYING€THAT€TOP-DOWN€IS€ACCEPTABLE€ACROSS€ALLÏPROGRAMS.Ìà àà x àANY€OTHER€COMMENTS?€€OH,€I'M€SORRY.€€KAREN?Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€I€JUST€WANT€TO€GO€BACK€TOÐ %Ð$ ÐSOMETHING€I€HEARD€DENNIS€SAY.€€IF€I€UNDERSTOOD€YOUÏCORRECTLY,€FOR€THE€SIP-APPROVED€STATES€IT€IS€EPA'SÏINTENT€THAT€YOU€COULD€ACTUALLY€USE€A€BOTTOM-UP€APPROACH?€ÏI€HEARD€YOU€SAY€"BOTTOM-UP"?€€AND,€YOU€KNOW,€HOW€WOULDÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHAT€WORK?€€AND€WOULD€YOU€EVER€EVEN€CONSIDER€THEN€THEÏBEST,€MOST€IN€TERMS€OF€MOST€ENVIRONMENTAL€PROTECTIVEÏTECHNOLOGY?€€HOW€WOULD€--€THAT€SEEMS€TO€BEING€TURNINGÏTHE€WHOLE€TECHNOLOGY-FORCING€ASPECT€THAT'S€WORKED€SOÏWELL,€AND€LET€ME€JUST€GIVE€YOU€A€COUPLE€OF€QUICKÏEXAMPLES.Ìà àà x àIN€ONE€YEAR€ALONE€--€AND€THESE€ARE€JUST€THEÏPERMITS€THAT€THE€DEPARTMENT€OF€INTERIOR€AGENCIES€THATÏHANDLE€CLASSI€AREAS,€FISH€&€WILDLIFE€SERVICE€AND€PARKÏSERVICE,€JUST€IN€ONE€YEAR,€I€MEAN,€WE€WERE€ABLE€TO€--€BYÏPOINTING€OUT,€LOOKING€AT€THE€CLEARINGHOUSE,€AND€FROM€OURÏOWN€KNOWLEDGE€--€WE€WERE€ABLE€TO€GET€SOòò2óó€REDUCED€OVERÐ p8 Ð1300€TONS€IN€JUST€FROM€WHAT€WAS€INITIALLY€PROPOSED€BYÏTHE€APPLICANT.€€SO€I'M€CONCERNED.€€WHAT€DO€YOU€MEAN€BY€AÏ"BOTTOM-UP€APPROACH?"€Ìà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€WELL,€THAT'S€JUST€THEÐ  Ø ÐDIRECTION€OF€THE€FLOW€OF€INFORMATION.€€WE'RE€STILLÏADHERING€TO€THE€TWO€CORE€CRITERIA€WHICH€WE€PROPOSEDÏWHICH€SAYS€YOU€HAVE€TO€--€YOU€HAVE€TO€HAVE€THE€ENTIREÏSPECTRUM€OF€TECHNOLOGIES,€INCLUDING€THE€MOST€STRINGENT,ÏIN€THE€POOL€OF€TECHNOLOGIES€THAT€ARE€ANALYZED.€€OKAY?€ÏSO€THAT€TECHNOLOGY€--€THAT€TOP€TECHNOLOGY€IS€GOING€TOÏALWAYS€FALL€IN€THE€POOL€OF€CANDIDATES.€€SO€IT'S€JUST€AÐ ¨+p$, ÐMATTER€OF€HOW€THOSE€CANDIDATES€ARE€ANALYZED,€AND€WHICHÏ--€DO€YOU€TAKE€THE€LEAST€OPTION€FIRST€AND€PROCEEDÏUPWARD,€OR€DO€YOU€TAKE€TOP€ONE€FIRST€AND€PROCEEDÏDOWNWARD?€€AND€YOU€ALSO€HAVE€TO€JUSTIFY€IN€YOUR€ANALYSISÏTHE€REJECTION€OF€THE€MORE€STRINGENT€TECHNOLOGIES.€€THATÏDOESN'T€NECESSARILY€MEAN€THE€TOP-DOWN€TECHNOLOGY€OR€THEÏMOST€STRINGENT€TECHNOLOGY,€BUT€IT€MEANS€WHAT€DO€YOU€--ÏHOW€DO€YOU€JUSTIFY€REJECTION€OF€MAYBE€TWO€OR€THREE€MOREÏSTRINGENT€TECHNOLOGIES.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€SO€IT'S€REALLY€--€I€THINK,Ð  è ÐKAREN,€WHAT€DENNIS€IS€SAYING,€YOU€LOOK€AT€THE€PACKAGE€ASÏMORE€PROCESS€VERSUS€THE€PRINCIPLE€AS€YOU€LOOK€AT€THEÏTWO--AT€THE€PROGRAMS.Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€NOW€AS€A€PRACTICAL€MATTER,€IÐ Àˆ ÐGUESS€I'M€HAVING€A€HARD€TIME€UNDERSTANDING€THAT€THATÏWOULD€WORK.€€UNDER€THE€CURRENT€SYSTEM€YOU€LOOK€AT€THEÏBEST€TECHNOLOGY,€THE€TOP,€FROM€THE€TOP€DOWN,€AND€IFÏTHAT--AND€YOU€EVALUATE€THAT€TOP€ONE€FIRST,€AND€YOU€MAYÏNOT€GO€TO€LOOKING€AT€THE€OTHER€LESSER€--€LESSÏENVIRONMENTALLY€BENEFICIAL€TECHNOLOGIES€IF€THAT€TOP€ONEÏMEETS€YOUR€TEST.€€AND€HERE€--€SO€I€DON'T€UNDERSTAND€IN€AÏBOTTOM-UP€APPROACH€HOW€YOU€WOULD€GET€TO€LOOK€AT€TOPÏTECHNOLOGY€IF€THE€--€I€WOULD€SEE€HOW€THE€BOTTOM€ONE€--Ð ¨+p$, ÐYOU'RE€DOING€THE€REVERSE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€YEAH,€TOP-DOWN€PROCESS€HAS€AРਠÐSTRUCTURE€TO€IT.€€IT€IS€A€PROCESS.€€IT€IS€A€METHODOLOGY.€ÏIT€IS€A€STEP-BY-STEP.€€THERE€ARE€FIVE€STEPS€STARTING€ATÏTHE€TOP.€€BUT,€BASICALLY,€IT€BUILDS€ON€THE€TWOÏPRINCIPLES€THAT€YOU€CONSIDERED€THE€BEST,€AND€IF€YOUÏDON'T€CHOOSE€THE€BEST,€YOU€JUSTIFY€ACCORDING€TOÏSTATUTORY€CRITERIA€WHY.€€SO€YOU€START€AT€THE€BEST,€ANDÏYOU€DO€THE€ANALYSIS.€€Ìà àà x àIF€THE€STATE€CAME€TO€THE€SAME€CONCLUSIONÏUSING€A€DIFFERENT€METHODOLOGY,€WHATEVER€THAT€METHODOLOGYÏWAS,€THAT€WOULD€BE€ACCEPTABLE.€€THEY€DO€NOT€HAVE€TOÏFOLLOW€EPA'S€STEPS€TO€COME€TO€THAT€CONCLUSION€AS€LONG€ASÏTHEY'VE€DEMONSTRATED€THAT€THEIR€CONCLUSION€WAS€DERIVEDÏFROM€IMPLEMENTING€THE€TWO€PRINCIPLES.€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BOB?€€Ð  Ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€THIS€--Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€EXCUSE€ME.€€Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€I€SEE€KAREN€IS€STILL€LOOKINGÐ %Ð$ ÐPUZZLED.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:€€ó óAT€LUNCH€YOU€CAN€DISCUSS€THISÐ X( !( ÐSCINTILLATING€TOPIC.Ìà àà x àBOB?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.BEASLEY:ó ó€€THE€OAQPS€COST€CONTROL€MANUALÐ 8 ÐDISCUSSES€LOOKING€AT€COSTS€BASED€ON€AVERAGE€COST€ANDÏALSO€ON€INCREMENTAL€COST.€€AND€WHILE€IT'S€SOMEWHATÏAMBIGUOUS€AS€TO€HOW€TO€WEIGHT€THESE€TWO,€IT€DOES€--€ANDÏI€THINK€WE€ALL€HAVE€IN€OUR€PERMITTING€EFFORTS€LOOKED€ATÏBOTH€TYPES€OF€COSTS.€€IF€YOU€USED€A€PURELY€TOP-DOWNÏBASIS,€YOU€WOULD€STOP€ONCE€YOU€GOT€TO€SOMETHING€THAT€HADÏAN€AVERAGE€COST€THAT€WAS€ACCEPTABLE.€€YOU€WOULD€NEVERÏGET€TO€THE€NEXT-BEST,€SO€YOU€WOULD€NEVER€DO€ANÏINCREMENTAL€COST€ANALYSIS€AND€NOT€DISCOVER€THATÏTECHNOLOGY€THAT'S€ALMOST€AS€GOOD€BUT€A€WHALE€OF€A€LOTÏCHEAPER.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BILL,€DO€YOU€HAVE€--Ð à Ðà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€YEAH,€JUST€A€QUICK€COMMENT.€€IÐ Àˆ 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àAND€IF€WE€DON'T,€THEN€IT'S€GOING€TO€AFFECTÏTHE€REST€OF€THIS€RULE,€AND€I€WOULD€URGE€THAT€THEÏINDUSTRY€THINK€CAREFULLY€THROUGH€ITS€PRIORITIES€AS€TOÏWHAT€IT€WANTS€OUT€OF€THIS:€€WHETHER€IT'S€WILLING€TO€PUTÏON€THE€BEST€OR€SOMETHING€CLOSE€TO€IT€OR€WHETHER€IT€WANTSÏTO€AVOID€SOME€OF€THE€RULES€ON€SOURCES€THAT€THEY€FEELÏVERY€STRONGLY€SHOULDN'T€BE€REGULATED€UNDER€THIS€RULE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€HENRY?€€ON€THIS€ISSUE,€AND€THENÐ à ÐWE€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€YEAH.€€LET€ME€JUST€SAY€THAT€ASÐ h0 ÐFAR€AS€I'M€PERSONALLY€CONCERNED€I€DON'T€CARE€WHERE€YOUÏSTART,€WHETHER€YOU€START€AT€THE€BOTTOM€OR€WHETHER€YOUÏSTART€AT€THE€TOP.€€YOU€HAVE€TO€EXPLAIN€YOUR€SELECTIONÏAND€WHAT€I€CARE€ABOUT€IS€TO€BE€ABLE€TO€COMPAREÏTECHNOLOGIES€SO€THAT€I€CAN€LOOK€DOWN€TO€THE€FOURTHÏLEVEL,€SEE€THAT€THE€INCREMENTAL€COST€ANALYSIS€SHOWSÏTREMENDOUS€DIFFERENCE€BETWEEN€THE€MORE€STRINGENTÏTECHNOLOGY€AND€THE€NEXT€LEVEL€LESS€STRINGENT€TECHNOLOGY.€Ð ¨+p$, ÐAND€I€CAN€GO€TO€THAT€LESS€STRINGENT€NEXT€TECHNOLOGY€ANDÏREJECT€THE€TOP€THREE.€€Ìà àà x àIT'S€NOT€A€QUESTION€OF€LOOKING€AT€THE€TOP.€ÏIT'S€A€QUESTION€WHAT€ARE€THE€DECISIONAL€CRITERIA€THATÏGOVERN€THE€SELECTION.€€AND€AS€I€READ€THE€PROPOSAL,€ATÏLEAST€IN€THE€SIP€STATES,€YOU€HAVE€VERY€FLEXIBLE€DECISIONÏCRITERIA.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€LESLIE,€IS€IT€ON€THIS€TOPIC€ORРИ  ÐANOTHER?€Ìà àà x àò òMS.RITTS:ó ó€€IT'S€ON€THIS€--Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMS.RITTS:ó ó€€--€TOPIC.€€I€DON'T€KNOW€IF€IT'SÐ p8 ÐNECESSARY€TO€SAY€ANYTHING€MORE€AFTER€HENRY,€BUT€WE'REÏJUST€GETTING€ALL€TIED€UP€IN€KNOTS€OVER€THE€RUBRIC.€ÏYOU'RE€STILL€GOING€TO€CONSIDER€THE€TOP€TECHNOLOGY.€ÏYOU'RE€STILL€IN€MOST€CASES€GOING€TO€PUT€THE€TOPÏTECHNOLOGY€ON€UNLESS€THERE'S€SOME€REALLY€COMPELLINGÏREASON€NOT€TO,€AND€YOU'RE€GOING€TO€CONSIDER€THESE€AIRÏQUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€IN€THAT€DETERMINATION.€€SO,€YOUÏKNOW,€I€DON'T€UNDERSTAND€WHAT€THE€BIG€DEAL€IS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€NO,€I€THINK€THIS€IS€--€THIS€IS€AÐ X( !( ÐPOINT€OF€CLARIFICATION.€€Ìà àà x àAND€I€THINK,€BILL,€WHAT€WE€SAYING€IS€TO€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐEXTENT€THAT€A€SIP€PROCESS€--€A€STATE€HAS€GONE€THROUGHÏTHAT€HAS€GREATER€FLEXIBILITY,€MAYBE€THAT'S€A€BENEFIT.€ÏTHAT'S€WHY€THEY€WANT€TO€GET€IT€THROUGH€HERE€AND€NOT€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€OKAY,€REAL€QUICKLY.€€I€DON'TÐ 0 ø ÐTHINK€THIS€IS€RUBRIC.€€THIS€IS€--€THIS€IS€AN€ANALYSISÏTHAT€CHANGES€THE€WHOLE€DYNAMIC€OF€WHETHER€THERE€IS€THEÏPRESUMPTION€THAT€SOMEONE€WHO€IS€BUILDING€A€NEW€FACILITYÏIS€GOING€TO€START€WITH€THE€BEST€AND€WORK€ITS€WAY€DOWN€ORÏWHETHER€THERE'S€GOING€TO€BE€ALLOWANCE€TO€START€WITH€THEÏWORST€AND€NEVER€GET€UP€TO€THE€BETTER€FACILITIES€EVEN€IFÏIT'S€IN€THE€DATABASE.€€AND€I€THINK€THAT€DECISION€WHEREÏWE€END€UP€WITH€IS€GOING€TO€BE€AFFECTED€BY€WHERE€WEÏSTART,€AND€IT'S€GOING€TO€CHANGE€HOW€WE€FEEL€ABOUTÏALLOWING€SOME€OF€THESE€EXCLUSIONS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERS:ó ó€€YEAH,€I€REALLY€--€I€WAS€GOINGÐ h0 ÐTO€MAKE€A€SEPARATE€POINT,€BUT€I€WOULD€LIKE€TO€RESPOND€TOÏWHAT€BILL€SAID,€AND€I'M€SOMEWHAT€AMAZED€THAT€HE€HAS€SUCHÏCONCERNS€THAT€THE€STATES€WOULD€BE€SO€INEPT€AT€LOOKING€ATÏTHE€TECHNOLOGIES€THAT€WE'RE€GOING€TO€COME€IN€AND€STARTÏWITH€THE€LEAST€STRINGENT€TECHNOLOGY€AND€NEVER€MOVE.€ÏTHAT'S€ABSURD.€€TO€START€WITH,€AND€AS€YOUR€CLIENTS,€IÏTHINK€THEY'D€BE€OFFENDED€BY€THE€PRESUMPTION€OF€IT.Ìà àà x àBUT€ONE€OF€THE€THINGS€THAT€HAS€BOTHERED€USÐ ¨+p$, ÐFROM€THE€START€IS€THAT€IF€YOU€GO€STRICTLY€TOP-DOWN,€YOUÏMAY€NEVER€GET€TO€AN€INCREMENTAL€COST€ANALYSIS,€AND€THATÏIS€OFFENSIVE.€€THAT€IS€ABSOLUTELY€RIDICULOUS€TO€NEVER€BEÏABLE€TO,€AS€HENRY€SAID,€COMPARE€THE€TECHNOLOGIES€AND€THEÏRELATIVE€COST-EFFECTIVENESS.€€AS€AN€OLD€ECONOMIST€--€ANDÏI€MAKE€NO€APOLOGIES€FOR€IT€--€I'D€SAID€IN€THE€SAME€FORUMÏMANY€TIMES--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€Ð И  Ðà àà x àò òMR.BUMPERS:ó ó€€EMPHASIS€ON€"OLD"€AT€THISÐ x@  ÐPOINT.€Ìà àà x àBUT,€AND€I'VE€SAID€THIS€BEFORE,€YOU€CAN'TÏFIND€AN€ECONOMIC€TEXTBOOK€IN€THE€COUNTRY€THAT€WILL€TELLÏYOU€THAT€YOU€SHOULD€MAKE€ANY€DECISIONS€ON€THE€BASIS€OFÏAVERAGE€COST,€AND€IF€YOU€IGNORE€INCREMENTAL€COSTS€OFÏTECHNOLOGIES€AND€THE€ENVIRONMENTAL€EFFECTIVENESS€OF€IT,ÏYOU€ARE€DESTINED€TO€MAKE€VERY€POOR€CHOICES.Ìà àà x àAND€I€THINK€DAVID€HIT€IT€RIGHT.€€AS€LONG€ASÏYOU€ADHERE€TO€THE€PRINCIPLES,€AND€YOU'RE€MAKING€THEÏCORRECT€COMPARISON€AND€JUSTIFYING€WHY€YOU€DON'T€TAKE€THEÏMOST€STRINGENT€TECHNOLOGY€OR€MORE€STRINGENTÏTECHNOLOGIES,€YOU'RE€GOING€TO€GET€TO€THE€RIGHT€AND€SAMEÏRESULTS.€€AND€I€THINK€IT'S€VERY€IMPORTANT€THAT€THEÏSTATES€MAINTAIN€THE€FLEXIBILITY€TO€DO€THIS€IN€A€RATIONALÐ ¨+p$, ÐPROCESS.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€JOHN?РਠÐà àà x àò òMR.BUNYAK:ó ó€€JOHN€BUNYAK,€NATIONAL€PARKÐ ˆ P ÐSERVICE.€€I€GUESS€I'LL€THROW€IN€MY€TWO€CENTS.€€I€THINKÏIN€THEORY,€WHETHER€YOU€USE€BOTTOM-UP€OR€A€TOP-DOWNÏAPPROACH,€YOU€SHOULD€COME€TO€THE€SAME€LEVEL,€BUT€PASTÏHISTORY€DOESN'T€SEEM€TO€DICTATE€THAT.€€PRIOR€TO€EPA'SÏTOP-DOWN€POLICY,€SOURCES€WERE€COMING€IN€PROPOSING€NSPS,ÏAND€IT€WAS€DIFFICULT€FOR€THE€STATES€TO€GO€BEYOND€THAT.€ÏSO€I€THINK€THE€PARK€SERVICE€IS€A€MAJOR€ADVOCATE€OFÏTOP-DOWN€AND€WOULD€ENCOURAGE€THE€EPA€TO€INCLUDE€THEÏSTATE€SIP€PROPOSAL€AS€WELL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€WHAT€--€ICLAL,€ONE€LAST€COMMENT,Ð à ÐAND€WE'RE€GOING€TO€BREAK€FOR€LUNCH€AND€COME€BACK€ANDÏDISCUSS€A€COUPLE€OF€MINOR€ISSUES,€LIKE€CLASSI.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€I€HEAR€THAT€THE€REAL€INTERESTÐ  Ø ÐHERE€IS€NOT€THE€WAY€HOW€THE€ANALYSIS€WAS€DONE,€BUTÏWHETHER€INCREMENTAL€COSTS€--€THE€DECISION€IS€BASED€ON€AÏTOTAL€COST€BASIS€OR€AN€INCREMENTAL€COST€BASIS.€€I€WOULDÏSAY€THE€DECISION€CANNOT€BE€BASED€ALONE€ON€TOTAL€COST,€ORÏIT€CANNOT€BE€BASED€ALONE€ON€INCREMENTAL€COST.€€BOTH€HAVEÏTO€BE€TAKEN€INTO€CONSIDERATION€AT€THE€SAME€TIME.Ìà àà x àFOR€EXAMPLE,€IF€YOU'RE€TALKING€ABOUTÐ ¨+p$, 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òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€IF€THERE€ARE€NO€MOREÐ X( !( ÐDISCUSSIONS€ON€THE€TECHNOLOGY€SIDE,€WHY€DON'T€WE€TAKEÏA--IS€THERE€ANYTHING€--€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMS.BANKOFF:€€PAT?Ð 8 Ðà àà x àó óMR.RAHER:ò ò€€ó óI'M€SORRY.€€BARBARA?РਠÐà àà x àò òMS.BANKOFF:ó ó€€WE€DIDN'T€EVEN€GET€TO€UT/A€ORÐ ˆ P ÐPOLLUTION€PREVENTION.€€ARE€YOU€PLANNING€TO€DO€THAT€AFTERÏLUNCH€OR€IGNORE€IT€OR?Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ACTUALLY,€I€THINK€I€JUSTÐ €H  ÐOVERLOOKED€IT.€€THAT'S€ALL.Ìà àà x àò òMS.BANKOFF:ó ó€€THAT'S€WHAT€I€--РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€WHY€DON'T€WE€TAKE€THAT€UP€RIGHTÐ x@  ÐAFTER€LUNCH,€--€Ìà àà x àò òMS.BANKOFF:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€--€AND€THEN€WE'LL€MOVE€ON€THEN?€Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.BANKOFF:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€I€MEAN,€THE€OTHERÐ à ÐTHING€IS€--€UNLESS€OTHER€PEOPLE€HAVE€COMMENTS,€I€JUSTÏHAVE€A€VERY€BRIEF€ONE,€WHICH€SEEMS€APPROPRIATE€TO€THISÏDISCUSSION.€€TWO€MINUTES.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMS.BANKOFF:ó ó€€LESS€THAN€TWO€MINUTES?€Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó 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àTHE€ONE€THING€THAT€I€WAS€CONCERNED€ABOUT€ISÏTHAT€THERE€STILL€NEEDS€TO€BE€A€SEPARATE€SUBCATEGORY,€IÏBELIEVE,€FOR€DEMONSTRATED€POLLUTION€PREVENTION,€WHICH€WEÏHAD€RECOMMENDED.€€IT€WAS€AN€UNANIMOUS€RECOMMENDATIONÏFROM€THE€ENTIRE€GROUP.€€AND€I€THINK€THAT€THE€MAIN€REASONÏIS€THE€WAY€IT'S€CURRENTLY€SET€UP,€THE€AGENCY'S€APPROACHÏTO€LAER€DOESN'T€ALLOW€FOR€CONSIDERATION€OF€COLLATERALÏEMISSIONS,€ENERGY€IMPACTS,€OTHER€THINGS€LIKE€THAT,€AND€IÏTHINK€THAT€WITHOUT€THAT€SEPARATE€SUBCATEGORY,€THEREÏREALLY€IS€A€DISINCENTIVE€TO€DOING€A€NUMBER€OF€APPROACHESÏTHAT€ARE€POLLUTION€PREVENTION.Ìà àà x àI€MEAN€BOTH€JOHN€--€SORRY€TO€USE€YOUR€NAME,ÏBUT€JOHN€AND€EVEN€DAVE€MENTIONED€SOMETHING€THIS€MORNINGÏABOUT€COLLATERAL€EMISSIONS.€€JOHN€HAD€MENTIONED€USINGÏLOW€VOC€COATINGS.€€THERE'S€NOT€MUCH€INCENTIVE€TO€DOINGÏTHAT€IF€YOU€HAVE€TO€DO€ADD-ON€TECHNOLOGIES,€AND€IÐ ¨+p$, ÐBELIEVE€THAT€THERE€IS€ENOUGH€--€THERE€IS€ENOUGH€OF€AÏSAFEGUARD€MECHANISM€THAT'S€ALREADY€SET€UP€IN€THE€UT/AÏPROPOSAL€THAT€THE€SAME€THING€COULD€BE€USED€FOR€AÏSUBCATEGORY€FOR€DEMONSTRATED€Pòò2óó.€€SO€I€WOULD€STRONGLYÐ 0 ø ÐURGE€THAT€THAT€BE€RECONSIDERED.€€OTHER€THAN€THAT,€IÏTHINK€IT'S€VERY€HELPFUL.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€ALL€RIGHT,€WELL,€WE€CANÐ (ð  ÐAGAIN€REVISIT€THIS€RIGHT€AFTER€LUNCH€AS€WELL€AS€LOOKINGÏAT€ANY€OF€THE€OTHER€ISSUES€THAT€THE€COMMITTEE€MEMBERSÏWOULD€LIKE€TO€RAISE€BEFORE€WE€MOVE€ON€TO€CLASSI.€€Ìà àà x àWHY€DON'T€WE€TAKE€A€BREAK€RIGHT€NOW?Ìà àà x à(12:17€P.M.€€LUNCH€RECESS€€1:28€P.M.)Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT,€LET'S€BEGIN.€€I€THINKÐ à ÐBEFORE€WE€MOVE€ON€TO€THE€ISSUE€OF€CLASSI€REQUIREMENTS,ÏI'M€GOING€TO€DO€THREE€THINGS:€€FIRST€OF€ALL,€ASK€IFÏTHERE€ARE€ANY€ADDITIONAL€COMMENTS€SIMILAR€TO€BARBARA'SÏCOMMENTS€ON€UNDEMONSTRATED€TECHNOLOGY€OR€ANY€OF€THEÏOTHER€TECHNOLOGY€REQUIREMENT€ISSUES.€€Ìà àà x àI'D€LIKE€TO€THEN€ASK€IF€THERE'S€ANYBODY€ONÏTHE€FACA€THAT€WOULD€LIKE€TO€MAKE€ANY€CLARIFYING€COMMENTSÏOR€SUGGESTIONS€BASED€ON€WHAT€WE'VE€ALL€HEARD€TODAY€ONÏANY€OF€THE€ISSUES,€SORT€OF€AS€A€CLEANUP€OF€THIS€PHASE.€ÌAND€THEN€WE'D€LIKE€TO€ASK€ANYBODY€IN€THE€PUBLIC,€IN€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐAUDIENCE,€IF€THEY€WOULD€LIKE€TO€MAKE€ANY€GENERALÏCOMMENTS,€AND€THEN€WE'LL€MOVE€ON€THE€CLASSI.€Ìà àà x àIS€THERE€ANYBODY€WHO€WOULD€LIKE€TO€MAKE€ANYÏCOMMENTS€AS€A€FOLLOW-ON€TO€BARBARA'S€COMMENTS€ON€THEÏUNDEMONSTRATED€TECHNOLOGY,€ETC.?€€DID€THAT€--€DID€SHEÏPRETTY€WELL€CAPTURE€MANY€OF€THE€THOUGHTS?€€OKAY.€€Ìà àà x àIS€THERE€ANYONE€ON€THE€COMMITTEE€WHO€WOULDÏLIKE€TO€MAKE€SORT€OF€GENERAL€COMMENTS€ON€WHAT€YOU€HEARDÏTHIS€MORNING,€ANY€AREAS€WHERE€WE€THINK€THAT€THE€AGENCYÏSHOULD€PLACE€MORE€EMPHASIS,€DO€A€LITTLE€MORE€ANALYSIS,ÏOR€WE,€AS€COMMITTEE€MEMBERS,€SHOULD€BE€LOOKING€AT€THATÏKIND€OF€ACTIVITY€FOR€WRITTEN€COMMENTS?Ìà àà x àHENRY?Ìà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€YES,€I€JUST€WANTED€TO€GIVE€MEÐ Àˆ ÐREACTION€TO€A€RECOMMENDATION€WE€HEARD€FROM€TWO€OF€THEÏSTATE€REPRESENTATIVES€EARLIER;€AND€THAT€IS,€CONSIDERINGÏA€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€ACCOUNTING€APPROACH€WITH€ACTUALÏEMISSIONS€CONSIDERED€FOR€PURPOSES€OF€OFFSETS.€€Ìà àà x àI€THINK€--€AND€I€THINK€THAT€YOU'VE€HEARDÏTHIS€FROM€A€NUMBER€OF€US€BEFORE€--€THAT€WOULD€BE€REALÏSIMPLIFICATION.€€IT€WOULD€BE€REAL€REFORM.€€IT€WOULDÏRESPOND€TO€THE€CENTRAL€CONCERN€THAT€A€NUMBER€OF€US€HAVEÏABOUT€LOSING€CAPACITY€THAT€YOU'RE€AUTHORIZED€TO€USE,€ANDÐ ¨+p$, ÐWE'RE€ALWAYS€--€AND€CONSTRUCT€A€FACILITY€TO€USE.€€Ìà àà x àIT€WOULD€ENABLE€YOU€TO€MOVE€AWAY€FROM€AÏNUMBER€OF€THESE€OTHER€RULES,€WHICH€THERE€IS€NO€QUESTIONÏAT€ALL€INVOLVE€MORE€COMPLEX€JUDGMENTS€THAN€APPLICATIONÏOF€THAT€PARTICULAR€APPROACH.€€I€KNOW€JUST€FROM€THEÏSTANDPOINT€OF€THE€òòWEPCOóó€RULE,€I€THINK€YOU€COULD€--€YOUÐ €H  ÐCOULD€GET€RID€OF€90€PERCENT€OF€THE€òòWEPCOóó€RULE.€€Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àTHE€ONE€THING€THAT€WE'VE€BEEN€TALKING€ABOUTÏTODAY€THAT€WOULD€HAVE€TO€REMAIN,€OF€COURSE,€WOULD€BEÏPOLLUTION€CONTROL€EXCLUSION.€€AS€WAS€DISCUSSED€EARLIER,ÏYOU€WILL€HAVE€SOME€COLLATERAL€INCREASES,€AND€THAT€HAS€TOÏBE€ADDRESSED€THROUGH€THAT€TYPE€OF€EXCLUSION.€€BUT€IÏTHINK€THAT€THIS€WOULD€BE€VERY€PROMISING€AND€CERTAINLYÏSOMETHING€THAT€WE'RE€GOING€TO€BE€LOOKING€AT€WHEN€WEÏPREPARE€OUR€COMMENTS€ON€THE€PROPOSAL.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€WOULD€--€I€BELIEVE€--€WE'REÐ  Ø ÐNOT€PUTTING€WORDS€IN€HER€MOUTH,€BUT€I€BELIEVE€ICLALÏAGREED€TO€MAKE€AVAILABLE€TO€ANYONE€THE€NEW€JERSEYÏPROGRAM€AND€HOW€IT€WORKS€AND€ANY,€YOU€KNOW,€ANYÏDESCRIPTION€OF€IT€THAT€WOULD€BE€NECESSARY€THAT'S€NOTÏEVIDENT€FROM€THE€LANGUAGE€FROM€THE€PROGRAM€ITSELF.€€ANDÏTHAT€MAY€BE€VERY,€VERY€USEFUL€FOR€ANY€OF€THE€GROUPS,ÏINCLUDING€YOUR€OWN€STATE€ASSOCIATION€AND€SO€FORTH€TOÐ ¨+p$, ÐLOOK€AT€AND€SEE€WHETHER€WE€COULD€GIVE€SOME€FEEDBACK€TOÏTHE€AGENCY€AS€TO€WHETHER€OR€NOT€THIS€SIMPLIFICATIONÏWOULD€BE€USEFUL€OR€NOT.Ìà àà x àICLAL?Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€I€COULD€SEND€A€COMPARISON€OF€THEÐ Ø   ÐACTUAL-TO-FUTURE€ACTUAL€WITH€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIALÏCURRENT€NEW€JERSEY€PROGRAM€TO€EVERYONE€IN€THE€NSR€REFORMÏIF€THEY€WANT€IT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€ACTUALLY€THINK€THAT€THE€WOULDÐ x@  ÐBE€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.NICKEL:ó ó€€IT€WOULD€BE€VERY€HELPFUL.Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€IS€THERE€ANY€OBJECTION€TO€THAT?€Ð p8 ÐI€THINK€THAT€WOULD€BE€EXTREMELY€HELPFUL,€AND€IT€WOULDÏGIVE€ALL€OF€US€A€PIECE€OF€PAPER€TO€TAKE€A€LOOK€AT€ANDÏMAYBE€FACILITATE€THE€DISCUSSION.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€I€JUST€HAVE€A€COUPLEÐ  Ø ÐQUESTIONS,€NOT€QUESTIONS€--€SUGGESTIONS.€€WE€DO€RAISEÏTHE€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST€WITHIN€THE€FRAMEWORK€OFÏCMA€EXHIBIT€"B,"€AND€OUR€BIGGEST€CONCERN€IS€THEÏPOTENTIAL€FOR€ALLOWING€REAL€INCREASES€IN€EMISSIONS€THATÏWOULD€OTHERWISE€HAVE€NOT€OCCURRED€AND€THEIR€IMPACT€ONÏAIR€QUALITY.€€AND€I€KNOW€THAT€WITHIN€THE€PACKAGE€WEÏSOLICIT€COMMENT€ON€HOW€THAT€ISSUE€COULD€BE€ADDRESSED.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àWHAT€I'VE€HEARD€FROM€NEW€JERSEY€WAS€ALONGÏWITH€THE€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST€THERE€WAS€SOME€KINDÏOF€AIR€QUALITY€ASSESSMENT€OR€INCREMENT€ANALYSIS.€€SO€THEÏMEMBERS€HERE€THAT€ARE€COMMENTING,€IF€YOU€CAN€PROVIDE€ANYÏCOMMENTS€ON€HOW€EPA€COULD€DEAL€OR€SHOULD€DEAL€WITH€THEÏPOTENTIAL€AIR€QUALITY€RAMIFICATIONS€OF€GOING€TO€THE€ÏPOTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST€THE€AGENCY€WOULD€APPRECIATEÏTHAT.Ìà àà x àAND€JUST€A€CLARIFYING€REQUEST€FROM€NEWÏJERSEY.€€ALONG€--€IS€IT€A€STRAIGHTÏPOTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST,€OR,€AS€I€UNDERSTOOD€IT,ÏTHERE'S€ALSO€AN€INCREMENT€AND€NOòòXóó€TEST€THAT€GOES€ALONG?Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€THERE'S€NO€INCREMENT€AND€NOòòXóó€TESTÐ à ÐTHAT€GOES€ALONG.€€WE€DID€--€IF€SOMEBODY€DOES€THE€NETTINGÏANALYSIS€USING€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL,€THEY€AREÏCOMPLETELY€EXCLUDED€FROM€THE€PROGRAM.€€HOWEVER,€NEWÏJERSEY€HAS€ITS€OWN€AUTHORITIES€THAT€MAY€ALLOW€US€TOÏREQUIRE€AN€AIR€QUALITY€IMPACT€ANALYSIS€TO€BE€DONE.Ìà àà x àTHE€ONLY€THING€IS€THAT€IN€THIS€POTENTIAL-TO-ÏPOTENTIAL€TEST€IT'S€NOT€SIMILAR€TO€WHAT'S€IN€THE€RULE.€ÏIT'S€QUITE€DIFFERENT€THAN€THAT.€€IT'S€YOUR€POTENTIALÏEMISSIONS€NOW,€YOUR€FUTURE€POTENTIAL€EMISSIONS€THATÏYOU'RE€ASKING€FOR€NOW,€AND€CREDIT€ONLY€IS€GIVEN€FORÐ ¨+p$, ÐNETTING€PURPOSES€IF€YOU€HAVE€MADE€ACTUAL€EMISSIONÏREDUCTIONS.€€NO€CREDIT€FOR€ALLOWABLE€REDUCTIONS.€€CREDITÏFOR€ONLY€ACTUAL€EMISSION€REDUCTIONS.€€THAT€IS€THEÏDIFFERENCE.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€BUT€THE€QUESTION€I€HAVE,Ð Ø   ÐTHOUGH,€IS€THAT€--€MAYBE€I'M€A€LITTLE€BIT€CONFUSED.€€BUTÏIF€I€HAVE€AN€EMISSION€UNIT,€AND€ALL€I'M€DOING€ISÏMODIFYING€THAT€UNIT€--€AND€WE'RE€NOT€TALKING€REDUCTIONS,ÏJUST€TALKING€MODIFYING€THAT€UNIT€OR€REPLACING€THATÏUNIT--IS€THAT€STILL€A€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST,€ORÏIS€THAT€AN€ACTUAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST?Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€IT'S€A€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIALÐ p8 ÐTEST.€€BECAUSE€IF€YOU'RE€MODIFYING€YOUR€UNIT€AND€YOU€AREÏSTILL€STAYING€WITHIN€THE€ALLOWABLE€EMISSIONS€LIMIT€THATÏWAS€ESTABLISHED€FOR€YOU,€THOSE€ALLOWABLE€EMISSIONSÏLIMITS€HAVE€BEEN€SUBJECT€TO€AIR€QUALITY€IMPACT€ANALYSIS,ÏINCREMENT€ANALYSIS,€AND€IN€THE€CASE€OF€NEW€JERSEY€ALSOÏHEALTH€RISK€ASSESSMENTS€AND€WERE€FOUND€TO€BE€ACCEPTABLEÏAS€FAR€AS€THE€ENVIRONMENT€IS€CONCERNED;€THEREFORE,€THEREÏIS€NO€NEED€RE„SUBJECT€YOU€IF€YOU'RE€GOING€TO€STAY€WITHINÏYOUR€ALLOWABLES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€BUT€MY€QUESTION€IS€THERE'S€AÐ *È"* ÐDISCONNECT€FROM€WHAT€I€HEARD€THIS€MORNING€RELATIVE€TOÐ ¨+p$, ÐYOUR€CONCERN€ABOUT€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€TEST€IN€THAT€THERE€YOUÏSAID€THERE€WAS€POTENTIAL€FOR€INCREASES€IN€EMISSIONS€THATÏWOULD€GO€UNREVIEWED,€AND€WHAT€I'VE€HEARD€NOW€ISÏBASICALLY€THE€SAME€TYPE€OF€TEST€WITHOUT€AN€AIR€QUALITYÏASSESSMENT.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€THAT'S€QUITE€DIFFERENT,€DAVID,Ð €H  ÐBECAUSE€IN€THE€CASE€OF€A€CLEAN€UNIT€EXEMPTION,€I€CANÏCOME€UP€AND€SAY,€OKAY,€THIS€UNIT€IS€EMITTING€100€TONS€OFÏNOòòXóó€NOW,€AND€IT€HAS€BACT/LAER€--€IT€HAS€BEEN€MADE€AÐ x@  ÐDEMONSTRATION€ON€IT€TWO€YEARS€FOR€BACT€AND€LAER.€€NOWÏI'M€GOING€TO€INCREASE€THOSE€100€TONS€PER€YEAR€EMISSIONSÏALLOWABLE€TO€400€TONS€PER€YEAR€EMISSIONS.€€BECAUSE€MYÏPERMIT€SAID€THAT€I€CAN€ONLY€OPERATE€1,000€HOURS,€NOW€I'MÏGOING€TO€INCREASE€1,000€HOURS€TO€4,000€HOURS.€€YOU€WILLÏCOMPLETELY€EXEMPT€THEM€FROM€REVIEW€BECAUSE€IT'S€CLEARLYÏBACT.€€BUT€FOUR€TIMES€MORE€EMISSIONS€WOULD€HAVE€FOURÏTIMES€MORE€IMPACT€ON€THE€ENVIRONMENT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€BUT€WHAT€IS€THE€DIFFERENCEÐ `#(" ÐBETWEEN€THAT€AND€YOUR€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST?Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€IT€VARIES€QUITE€SIGNIFICANTÐ °&x& ÐBECAUSE€IN€THIS€CASE€I'M€TALKING€ABOUT€BEING€BOTH€EQUALÏTO€ALLOWABLE€AND€ACTUAL.€€IF€THEY€ARE€GOING€TO€STAYÏWITHIN€THE€100€TONS€PER€YEAR,€THEY'RE€GOING€TO€BEÐ ¨+p$, ÐPOTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL,€DELTA€IS€ZERO,€NO€EMISSIONÏINCREASE.€€BUT€THE€POTENTIAL,€THE€ALLOWABLE,€AND€THEÏACTUAL€WHICH€IS€EQUAL€TO€EACH€OTHER,€100€TONS€PER€YEARÏIS€GOING€TO€GO€TO€400€TONS€PER€YEAR.€€IN€THIS€CASE€THEYÏWILL€BE€SUBJECT€TO€REVIEW,€BOTH€FROM€AN€AIR€QUALITY€ANDÏA€TECHNOLOGY€PERSPECTIVE.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€THINK€IT€MIGHT€BE€HELPFUL,Ð (ð  ÐICLAL,€YOU€KNOW,€IF€YOU€COULD€IN€YOUR€COMPARISON€ALSOÏTAKE€A€LOOK€AT€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€PROPOSAL.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€YES,€I€WILL€PUT€SOME€EXAMPLES€INÐ  è ÐTHERE€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€--€TO€ILLUSTRATE€WHAT€WE€MEAN.Ð à Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€RIGHT.€€I€THINK€IT€WILL€REFRESHÐ Àˆ ÐEVERYONE'S€RECOLLECTION€AS€TO€WHAT€YOU€WERE€TALKINGÏABOUT€TODAY€AND€HELP€US€LOOK€AT€BOTH€OF€THESE€PROGRAMS.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THANK€YOU.€Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àYEAH,€DENNIS?Ìà àà x àò òMR.CRUMPLER:ó ó€€ICLAL€--€THIS€ISÐ °&x& ÐDENNISCRUMPLER€--€I€ALSO€HAVE€ONE€MORE€QUESTION.€€INÏYOUR€ANALYSIS€WOULD€YOU€PLEASE,€IF€YOU€CAN,€EXPLAIN€HOWÏYOU€TREAT€SOURCES€THAT€MAY€BE€GRANDFATHERED€OR€HAVEÐ ¨+p$, ÐNEVER€GOTTEN€PERMITS,€FOR€EXAMPLE,€AND€FOR€HOW€THE€STATEÏHANDLES€THE€AIR€QUALITY€ANALYSIS€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THOSEÏSOURCES€IN€PROSPECTIVE€PERMITTING€ACTIONS?€€IN€OTHERÏWORDS,€WHEN€THAT€SOURCE€GOES€FORWARD€OR€PROPOSES€AÏPROJECT,€HOW€WOULD€THE€STATE€HANDLE€THEÏPOTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TEST€THERE?€€Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€OKAY.€€THAT€GOES€A€LITTLE€BITÐ (ð  ÐINTO€DIFFERENT€ISSUES€WHERE€WE€WILL€BE€COMMENTING€ASÏWELL.€€THERE€ARE€A€LOT€OF€EXCLUSIONS€PROVIDED€FOR€INÏHERE.€€EVEN€THOUGH€I€WOULD€SUPPORT€EXCLUDING€PERMITÏAPPLICANTS€FROM€MANY€OF€THE€ADMINISTRATIVE€BURDENS€OFÏTHE€NSR€PROGRAM,€I€REALLY€WOULD€BE€RELUCTANT€TO€SUPPORTÏNOT€LOOKING€INTO€AIR€QUALITY€IMPACTS€OR€INCREMENTÏANALYSIS,€AND€I€WOULD€ALSO€BE€RELUCTANT€TO€SUPPORT€--€IFÏSOMEBODY€IS€MAKING€AN€INVESTMENT,€CAPITAL€INVESTMENT,€INÏTHEIR€FACILITY,€REPLACING€EQUIPMENT€AND€REPAIRINGÏEQUIPMENT€AND€PUTTING€IN€A€NEW€INCREMENT€--€NOT€TO€USEÏCURRENT€TECHNOLOGY,€TODAY'S€AVAILABLE€DEMONSTRATEDÏTECHNOLOGY€TO€DO€THAT.€Ìà àà x àAND€I€DON'T€THINK€ANY€OF€THE€INDUSTRY€PEOPLEÏWOULD€OBJECT€TO€THAT.€€THEY'RE€SPENDING€THE€MONEY;€WHYÏNOT€USE€THE€GOOD€STUFF€THAN€USE€TO€BAD€STUFF€INSTEAD.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BOB€BEASLEY?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.BEASLEY:€€THERE€HAVE€BEEN€A€NUMBER€OFÐ 8 ÐCOURT€CASES€RECENTLY€ADDRESSING€THE€ISSUE€AS€TO€WHETHERÏOR€NOT€ó óLIMITS€HAVE€TO€FEDERALLY€ENFORCEABLE,€AND€I€KNOWÐ ˆ P ÐEPA€IS€STILL€TRYING€TO€DEAL€WITH€HOW€TO€HANDLE€THATÏISSUE.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€PROPOSED€LANGUAGE€IN€THE€REGULATION€DOESÏUSE€THE€TERM€"FEDERALLY€ENFORCEABLE"€A€NUMBER€OF€TIMES,ÏAND€I€THINK€IT'S€IMPORTANT€THAT€IN€THIS€PROCESS€THAT€ALLÏBE€SORTED€OUT;€AND€THAT€THOSE€CASES€WHERE€IT€CAN'T€BEÏSUPPORTED€TO€KEEP€THAT€LANGUAGE€THERE,€THAT€THEÏ"FEDERALLY€ENFORCEABLE"€PART€BE€STRICKEN,€PERHAPSÏREPLACED€WITH€"PRACTICALLY€ENFORCEABLE."Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€WE€WILL€LEAVE€THAT€TO€THEÐ à ÐEPA€LAWYERS€TO€SORT€OUT€FOR€US.Ìà àà x àRICH?Ìà àà x àò òMR.FISHER:ó ó€€I€JUST€WANT€TO€GO€ON€RECORD€BYÐ  Ø ÐSAYING€THAT€I€THINK€THE€POTENTIAL-TO-POTENTIAL€TESTÏMAKES€SENSE€FROM€THE€FORESTERS'€PERSPECTIVE.€€I'MÏRICHFISHER,€WITH€THE€FOREST€SERVICE.€AND€I€THINK€THEÏPAL'S€MAKE€SENSE€AS€WELL,€BUT€I€THINK€IT'S€IMPORTANTÏTHAT€WE€ADDRESS,€WHEN€CONSIDERING€A€PLANTWIDEÏAPPLICABILITY€LIMIT,€ADDRESS€--€AGAIN,€TO€ADDRESSÏJOHNBUNYAK'S€EARLIER€COMMENT€--€THAT€WE€CONSIDER€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐEFFECTS€OF€CHANGING€SOMETHING€IN€THE€PAL€ON€THE€HURD€ORÏON€THE€CLASSI€AREAS.Ìà àà x àAND€IF€THE€EMISSIONS,€THE€STACK€HEIGHTSÏCHANGE,€AND€THE€OPERATING€CONDITIONS€OF€THE€UNITS€ASÏTHEY€ARE€MANIPULATED€ON€THE€PAL€CHANGE€--€THEN,€PERHAPS,ÏWE€OUGHT€TO€BE€LOOKING€AT€WHAT€KIND€OF€EFFECTS€ORÏIMPACTS€THAT€HAS€FAR€AFIELD,€DOWNWIND.€€THAT'S€THEÏEXTENT€OF€MY€COMMENTS.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€ANY€OTHER€--€ERNIE?Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMR.ROSENBERG:ó ó€€JUST€IN€GENERAL€IN€TERMS€OFÐ  è ÐTHE€DISCUSSION€WE'VE€HAD,€I€THINK€IT'S€VERY€IMPORTANTÏFOR€EPA,€IN€LOOKING€AT€THESE€COMMENTS,€AND€THE€OTHERÏCOMMENTERS€TO€BE€AWARE€OF€THE€FACT€THAT€AVOIDING€ORÏINSTALLING€TECHNOLOGY€IS€OFTEN€NOT€THE€ISSUE.€€IF€THEREÏWERE€A€WAY€TO€INSTALL€THE€TECHNOLOGY€WHEN€YOU'RE€DOINGÏSOMETHING€NEW€WITHOUT€INCURRING€ALL€THE€DELAYS€ANDÏBURDENS€OF€THE€PERMITTING€PROCESS,€THAT€WOULD€BEÏACCEPTABLE€IN€A€LOT€OF€CASES.Ìà àà x àTHE€PROBLEM€IN€MANY€CASES€THAT€MAKESÏFACILITIES€LOOK€FOR,€YOU€KNOW,€ESCAPES€CHUTES€FROM€THEÏSYSTEM€IS€NOT€THAT€THEY'RE€UNWILLING€TO€PUT€IN€CONTROLS,ÏIT'S€JUST€THAT€THEY€CAN'T€AFFORD€THE€DELAY€THAT'SÏINVOLVED€IN€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEW€PROCESS.€€SO€AS€WE€GOÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHROUGH€THIS€PROCESS,€LET'S€LOOK€FOR€--€AND€I€REALIZE€INÏTHE€STRUCTURE€OF€THE€òòCLEAN€AIR€ACTóó€THIS€IS€DIFFERENT,РਠÐDIFFICULT€--€BUT€LET'S€LOOK€FOR€OPPORTUNITIES€WHERE€YOUÏCAN€ACKNOWLEDGE€YOU'VE€ALREADY€GOT€THE€CONTROL.€€Ìà àà x àTHAT'S€WHY€I€THINK€THE€CLEAN€UNIT€EXCLUSIONÏIS€SO€IMPORTANT,€BECAUSE€IT€GIVES€A€FACILITY€ANÏOPPORTUNITY€TO€BUY€FLEXIBILITY€AND€RAPID€RESPONSE€TO€ITSÏMARKETS€BY€PUTTING€IN€GOOD€CONTROLS,€WHICH€I€THINK€IS€AÏWIN-WIN€SITUATION€FOR€EVERYBODY.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BILL?Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€I€APOLOGIZE,€PAT.€€I'M€NOT€--Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€WELL,€THEN€WE'RE€GOING€TO€CUTÐ p8 ÐYOU€OFF.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€--€I'M€GOING€TO€TAKE€THE€HOOK.€Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àI€THOUGHT€THAT€IS€EXACTLY€WHAT€--€I€THINKÏYOU'RE€ABSOLUTELY€RIGHT,€ERNIE.€€YOU'RE€ABSOLUTELYÏRIGHT.€€WHAT€WE'VE€LEARNED€FROM€INDUSTRY€--€WHAT€I'VEÏLEARNED€FROM€INDUSTRY€IS€THAT€MOST€TIMES€CERTAINTY€ANDÏQUICK€DECISIONS€IS€MUCH€MORE€IMPORTANT€THAN€STRINGENCYÏOF€REGULATION,€AND€I€USED€TO€WORK€FOR€INDUSTRY,€AND€IÏKNOW€THIS.€€AND€THAT'S€WHY€I€THOUGHT€THAT€THE€STATES€ANDÏLOCALITIES€AGREEING€TO€A€MANDATORY€REQUIREMENT€TO€MAKEÏIT€--€TO€PROVIDE€THE€DATABASE€TO€MAKE€QUICK€DECISIONSÐ ¨+p$, ÐQUICKER€AND€EASIER€WAS€A€GOOD€TRADE€TO€ENSURE€THAT€WEÏHAD€THOSE€VERY€GOOD€DECISIONS€THAT€YOU'RE€AGREEING€TOÏFOLLOW€AS€A€TRADE€FOR€QUICK€DECISIONS.€€THE€GOODÏDECISIONS€ARE€THE€TRADE€FOR€QUICK€DECISIONS.€Ìà àà x àAND€THAT'S€WHY€I€WAS€SO€DISAPPOINTED€TO€HEARÏTHAT€NOT€EVERYONE€FEELS€THAT€WAY,€AND€I€THINK€--€I€THINKÏTHE€COMMONALITY€WE€HAVE€HERE€IS€WE€WILL€GIVE€YOUÏCERTAINTY€AND€WE€WILL€GIVE€YOU€QUICK€DECISIONS,€GIVE€USÏTHE€BEST€DECISIONS;€AND€IF€YOU€ARRIVE€A€SECOND€BEST,€ATÏLEAST€GO€THROUGH€THE€SAME€KIND€OF€PROCESS.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.BEASLEY:ó ó€€COULD€I?€€COULD€I€JUST€ADDÐ È ÐSOMETHING€TO€THAT?€€I€REALLY€DON'T€--€I€DON'T€DISAGREEÏWITH€YOU,€BILL,€WHICH€IS€PROBABLY€THE€FIRST€YOU'LL€EVERÏHEAR€AND€MAYBE€THE€LAST€TIME€YOU'LL€HEAR€THAT.€€BUT€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€THEN€LET'S€MOVE€ON.Ð h0 Ðà àà x àò òMR.BEASLEY:ó ó€€NO.€€BUT€THE€RIGIDITY€OFÐ  Ø ÐPUTTING€A€REQUIREMENT€IN€THE€FEDERAL€SYSTEM€MEANSÏENFORCING€A€CHOICE€AT€THE€FRONT€END€WHEN€YOU'REÏDESIGNING€THE€SYSTEM€IS€THE€PROBLEM.€€THERE€ARE€SOMEÏSOURCES€AT€SOME€TIMES€IN€THEIR€ECONOMIC€LIFE€WHERE€SPEEDÏIS€IMPORTANT.€€THERE€ARE€SOME€SOURCES€WHERE€AT€POINTS€INÏTHEIR€ECONOMIC€LIFE€AVOIDING€A€BIG€HIT€IN€TERMS€OFÏCAPITAL€EXPENSES€AT€THAT€POINT€IS€IMPORTANT.€€ONCEÐ ¨+p$, ÐAGAIN,€THERE'S€NO€GOOD€ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL€FIX€HERE.€Ìà àà x àAS€FAR€AS€THE€DISCUSSION€OF€TOP-DOWN€BACTÏAND€THE€USE€OF€GOOD€CONTROLS,€I€DIDN'T€HEAR€PEOPLEÏSAYING€THAT€THEY€WEREN'T€WILLING€TO€START€WITH€LOOKINGÏAT€GOOD€CONTROLS.€€I€HEARD€PEOPLE€SAYING€DON'T€FORCE€USÏTO€STOP€THERE€IF€THERE'S€--€IF€YOU'RE€MAKING€A€STUPIDÏDECISION€IN€TERMS€OF€INCREMENTAL€COST-EFFECTIVENESS.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.BECKER:ó ó€€I€DIDN'T€HEAR€THE€SAME,€BUT€WEРИ  ÐCAN€TALK€ABOUT€THAT€LATER.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€IF€THERE€ARE€NO€OTHERÐ  è ÐGENERAL€CLOSING€COMMENTS€FROM€THE€COMMITTEE€MEMBERS€ONÏWHAT€WE€DISCUSSED€THIS€MORNING,€ARE€THERE€ANY€--€ISÏTHERE€ANYBODY€IN€THE€PUBLIC€AUDIENCE€THAT€WOULD€LIKE€TOÏMAKE€A€COMMENT€ON€ANY€OF€THE€--€ON€THE€ISSUES€THAT€WEREÏDISCUSSED?€€Ìà àà x àALL€RIGHT.€€LET'S€MOVE€ON€THEN€TO€THEÏDISCUSSION€WITH€RESPECT€TO€CLASSI€PROTECTIONÏREQUIREMENTS.€€AGAIN,€I€WILL€TRY€TO€BRIEFLY€GIVE€YOU€AÏSNAPSHOT€OF€THE€OVERALL€ISSUES€THAT€CAME€UP€YESTERDAYÏWITH€RESPECT€TO€CLASSI.€€Ìà àà x àI€THINK€YOU€CAN€DIVIDE€IT€INTO€--€INTO€TWOÏCATEGORIES.€€THE€FIRST€ONE€WAS,€OBVIOUSLY,€THE€FEDERALÏLAND€MANAGERS,€I€THINK,€APPRECIATED€THE€RECOGNITION€THATÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHE€PACKAGE€GIVES€TO€THE€DIFFICULTY€AND€COMPLEXITIESÏTHAT€THEY€HAVE€WITH€DEALING€WITH€THEIR€OBLIGATIONS.Ìà àà x àON€THE€OTHER€HAND,€THOSE€INDIVIDUALS€THATÏWERE,€THE€PERMITTEES€HAVING€TO€DEAL€WITH€THIS,€WEREÏEXTREMELY€CONCERNED€AND€DO€NOT€BELIEVE€THAT€THE€PACKAGEÏADEQUATELY€ADDRESSES€THE€FACT€THAT€THERE€APPEARS€TO€BEÏNO€CHECK€OR€BALANCE€ON€THE€POTENTIAL€DELAY€THAT€THEÏPACKAGE€CAN€CAUSE€FROM€WHAT€WAS€CHARACTERIZED€ASÏ"UNBRIDLED€DISCRETION"€TO€CAUSE€CONTINUAL€DELAYS€INÏREVIEWS.€€Ìà àà x àAND€I€THINK€THAT€THERE€WERE€MANY€PEOPLE€WHOÏRAISED€ISSUES€AS€TO€THE€LEGAL€SUFFICIENCY€OF€THE€ISSUESÏAS€PRESENTED€IN€THE€OVERALL€PACKAGE.€Ìà àà x àTHERE€WERE€A€NUMBER€OF€REQUESTS€THAT€THEÏCLASSI€PROVISIONS€OF€THIS€PACKAGE€BE€SEVERED,€AND€THEREÏWERE€VERY€FEW€COMMENTS€WHICH€ACTUALLY€IDENTIFIEDÏCURRENTLY€AVAILABLE€MEANS€FOR€CORRECTING€THE€ISSUES€THATÏWERE€IDENTIFIED€AS€TROUBLESOME.Ìà àà x àWE€DIDN'T€HEAR,€BUT€MAYBE€JOHN€PAUL€AND€BILLÏAND€OTHERS€FROM€THE€STATES€CAN€ADDRESS€WHETHER€OR€NOTÏTHEY€BELIEVE€THAT€THE€CLASSI€PROVISIONS€WOULD€ALSOÏCAUSE€INCREASED€BURDEN€ON€THE€AMOUNT€OF€WORK,€TIME,ÏEXPENDITURES€THAT€THAT€WOULD€HAVE€TO€HAVE€SIMILAR€TO€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐOTHER€NEW€SOURCE€REVIEWS,€BUT€I€THINK€IT€DOES€HOLD€--ÏOBVIOUSLY,€IF€THE€COMMENTS€ARE€CORRECT,€IT€DOES€GO€BACKÏTO€THE€STATE€PERMITTERS€AS€TO€WHAT'S€GOING€TO€HAPPEN.€€Ìà àà x àTHAT'S€A€PRETTY€QUICK€SUMMARY€OF€THE€ISSUES.€ÏANYBODY€FROM€EPA€WANT€TO€SORT€OF€ADDRESS€THE€OVERALLÏGOALS€THAT€THE€AGENCY€HAD€WITH€RESPECT€TO€PUTTING€OUTÏTHIS€PORTION€OF€THE€PACKAGE?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€I'D€JUST€LIKE€TO€MAKE€A€MOTIONРИ  ÐTHAT€WE€ACCEPT€THE€ENTIRE€CLASSI€PROCEDURE€AS€PROPOSED.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THAT'S€A€--€WE€DON'T€HAVE€VOTINGÐ  è ÐPROCEDURES€HERE,€BUT€IF€WE€DID,€WE€COULD€DEBATE€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€JUST€TO€ADD€TO€WHAT€PAT€HASÐ p8 ÐSAID,€WE€WORKED€THROUGH€THE€CLASSI€PROCESS€WITH€SEVERALÏWORKING€GROUPS.€€AND€AS€THE€PROCESS€EVOLVED,€CONSENSUSÏWAS€REACHED€ON€CONCEPTS,€BUT€I€THINK€IT'S€FAIR€TO€SAYÏTHAT€IN€MOST€CASES€CONSENSUS€WAS€NEVER€REACHED€ON€THEÏEXACT€WAY€TO€ADDRESS€OR€RESOLVE€--€ADDRESS€THOSEÏCONCEPTS.€€AND€SO€WE€TOOK€IT€UPON€OURSELVES,€NATURALLY,ÏTO€PUT€ON€PAPER€A€PROCEDURE€THAT€WOULD€DEAL€WITHÏCONCEPTUAL€CONSENSUS,€BUT€AS€WE€FOUND€AS€WE€WENT€ALONG,ÏTHERE€WAS€DISAGREEMENT€FROM€BOTH€SIDES€AS€TO€HOW€--€HOWÏWE€CHOSE€TO€DEAL€WITH€THOSE€CONCEPTS,€AND€I€GUESS€THAT'SÏWHERE€WE€ARE€TODAY.€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àWE€DID€TRY€TO€ADDRESS€THE€CONCERNS€THATÏFOCUSED€ON€THE€FACT€THAT€THE€EXISTING€PROCESS€WASÏAMBIGUOUS.€€THE€PROCEDURES,€IN€FACT,€DIFFERED€FROM€--ÏBETWEEN€THE€PART€51€AND€THE€PART€52,€AND€THERE€WAS€AÏCLEAR€LACK€OF€ROLES€AND€AUTHORITY:€€NOT€JUST€ON€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER'S€PART,€BUT€AS€TO€WHO€WAS€REQUIREDÏTO€DO€WHAT€AND€WHO€COULD€REQUIRE€WHO€TO€DO€WHAT.€€Ìà àà x àAND€THERE€WAS€A€GENERAL€CONCERN€THAT€THEÏPROCESS€WAS€NOT€SUFFICIENTLY€LOADED€UP€FRONT,€SO€TOÏSPEAK,€SO€THAT€INFORMATION€COULD€BE€SHARED€AND€PROCESSEDÏIN€A€TIMELY€WAY€SO€THAT€DECISIONS€COULD€BE€MADE€IN€AÏTIMELY€WAY.€€AND€THERE€WAS€A€LACK€OF€COORDINATION€SOÏTHAT€OFTENTIMES€THE€PROCESS€DRAGGED€ON,€OR€IT€WAS€SAIDÏOFTENTIMES€THAT€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€DIDN'T€ENTERÏINTO€THE€--€ENTER€ONTO€THE€SCENE€UNTIL€THE€LAST€MINUTE,ÏAND€THAT€IN€ITSELF€DELAYED€THE€PROCESS€FOR€QUITE€SOMEÏTIME.Ìà àà x àSO€WE€DID€ADDRESS€THOSE€ISSUES€IN€THEÏPACKAGE:€€TRYING€TO€ADDRESS€THE€AMBIGUITY,€TRYING€TO€PUTÏA€PROCEDURE€IN€PLACE€THAT€WE€BELIEVE€REFLECTED€THEÏINTENT€OF€CONGRESS€AND€THE€STATUTE.€€AND€WE€TRIED€TOÏIDENTIFY€ROLES€AND€AREAS€OF€AUTHORITY.€€AND€BY€THE€WAY,ÏMY€PERSONAL€BELIEF,€AND€IT€WAS€OUR€INTENT,€WAS€THAT€WEÐ ¨+p$, ÐDID€REFLECT€THE€LEGISLATIVE€HISTORY€AND€THE€STATUTE€INÏTRYING€TO€PRODUCE€IN€THE€PACKAGE€AN€UNDERSTANDING€THATÏTHE€PERMITTING€AGENCY€OR€THE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€IS€THEÏCAPTAIN€OF€THE€SHIP,€SO€TO€SPEAK,€AND€THEY€DO€MAKE€--ÏTHEY€DO€HAVE€THE€BOTTOM-LINE€AUTHORITY€TO€MAKE€DECISIONSÏAS€THE€PROCESS€GOES€ON€AND€THAT€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGERÏHAS€A€ROLE€IN€THAT,€AND€THERE€IS€A€CORE€COORDINATIONÏRESPONSIBILITY€BUT€THAT€THE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€DOES,ÏINDEED,€HAVE€THAT€AUTHORITY€AND€RIGHT€TO€MAKE€THEÏDECISIONS€AS€THE€PROCEDURE€PURSUES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€AND€YOU€--€AND€FROM€THE€AGENCY'SÐ È ÐSTANDPOINT,€YOU€WERE€ATTEMPTING€TO€ADDRESS€BYÏELIMINATING€AMBIGUITY€AND€THE€FRONT€LOADING€AND€THEÏCOORDINATION€PROCESS,€THE€WHOLE€QUESTION€OF€DELAY?€€THATÏWAS€ONE€OF€YOUR€GOALS,€CORRECT?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€YES.€€BY€PUTTING€IN€THEREÐ  Ø ÐSPECIFIC€STEPS€WHERE€CERTAIN€THINGS€HAD€TO€BE€ADDRESSEDÏ--€TIME€SCHEDULES€FOR€ADDRESSING€THEM,€POINTS€WHEREÏCOORDINATION€NEEDED€TO€TAKE€PLACE,€AND€THEN€A€DECISIONÏCOULD€BE€MADE,€AND€LOADING€ALL€THESE€THINGS€UP€FRONTÏWHERE€THE€INFORMATION€WAS€AVAILABLE€EARLY,€WHEREÏDECISIONS€WERE€MADE€AT€APPROPRIATE€TIMES,€THAT€WEÏWOULDN'T€HAVE€TO€DEAL€WITH€THESE€AFTER€THE€FACT€SORT€OFÐ ¨+p$, ÐTYPE€DECISION-MAKING€DILEMMAS€THAT€WERE€COMING€UP€UNDERÏHISTORICAL€PSD€PERMIT€DETERMINATIONS.€Ìà àà x àTHERE€WERE€--€THERE€APPEARED€TO€BE,€ATÏLEAST,€MISCONCEPTIONS€ABOUT€WHAT€THE€PROGRAM€WOULD€TURNÏOUT€TO€BE€AS€A€RESULT€OF€THE€PROPOSAL,€AS€I€UNDERSTOODÏTHE€COMMENTS€YESTERDAY,€AND€PERHAPS€SOME€OF€THOSE€AREÏWHERE€WE€CAN€START€TODAY.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€PURPOSE€OR€INTENT€WAS€NOT€TO€TURN€TOÏSTATUTE€ON€ITS€HEAD,€AS€ONE€COMMENT€SAID,€BUT€TO€FOLLOWÏTHE€STATUTE€IN€REQUIRING,€FOR€ONE€THING,€THAT€A€NOTICEÏFROM€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€OR€OTHER€FEDERAL€OFFICIALÏNEEDED€TO€BE€SUBMITTED€IN€WRITING,€AND€WE€SAID€BEFOREÏTHE€--€BEFORE€THE€COMPLETION€DETERMINATION€WAS€MADE€INÏORDER€TO€ALLEGE€AN€ADVERSE€OR€POTENTIAL€ADVERSE€IMPACT€,ÏAND€THAT€WOULD€TRIGGER€A€CLASSI€ANALYSIS.€€AND€THATÏCLASSI€ANALYSIS€WOULD€THEN€PLACE€THE€BURDEN€ON€THEÏPERMITTING€AUTHORITY€--€I'M€SORRY,€THE€PERMITTEE€--€TOÏAN€INCREMENT€ANALYSIS€AND€THAT€WAS€CLEARLY€THE€INTENT€OFÏTHE€òòACTóó€TO€SHOW€THAT€THERE€WAS€NO€INCREMENT€VIOLATION€ONÐ %Ð$ ÐTHE€PART€OF€THE€PERMITTEE.Ìà àà x àAGAIN,€IN€THE€ABSENCE€OF€THAT€NOTICE,€THEREÏWOULD€BE€NO€REQUIREMENT€TO€DO€A€CLASSI€INCREMENTÏANALYSIS,€AND€THAT€WAS€THE€TRIGGER€FOR€IT.€€THAT€WASÐ ¨+p$, ÐWRITTEN€IN€THE€STATUTE.€€IT€WAS€NOT€IN€OUR€REGULATIONSÏBEFORE€THAT€POINT,€AND€SO€OUR€INTENT€THERE€WAS€TO€BEÏPARTICULARLY€CONSISTENT€WITH€THE€òòCLEAN€AIR€ACTóó€INÐ ˆ P ÐESTABLISHING€THAT€MECHANISM€THAT€WOULD€TRIGGER€A€CLASSIÏANALYSIS.€€Ìà àà x àAND€MAYBE€WE€CAN€START€WITH€THAT€PARTICULARÏISSUE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€WELL,€IT€MIGHT€BE€HELPFUL€IFРИ  ÐTHERE€WERE€ANY€OTHER€AREAS€OF€CLARIFICATION€THAT€WE€GETÏTHEM€SORT€OF€ALL€OUT€ON€THE€TABLE€SO€THAT€PEOPLE€CANÏLOOK€AT€THE€PACKAGE€AS€A€WHOLE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€OKAY.€€THERE€WAS€A€COMMENTÐ p8 ÐTHAT€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER'S€AUTHORITY€APPEARED€TO€BEÏARBITRARY€AND€OVERWHELMING.€€I€FORGET€WHAT€THE€VARIOUSÏWORDS€WERE.€€ABSOLUTE.€€AGAIN,€THAT€WAS€NOT€OUR€INTENT.€ÏOUR€INTENT€WAS€TO€DEFINE€THOSE€POINTS€IN€THE€PROCESSÏWHERE€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER'S€ROLE€WAS€APPROPRIATEÏAND€NECESSARY,€AND€THAT€INVOLVED€PREAPPLICATION€INPUT.€ÏIT€INVOLVED€COMPLETION€DETERMINATION€INPUT.€€IT€INVOLVEDÏANALYTICAL€DETERMINATION€INPUT€AND€THE€RIGHTS€ANDÏABILITIES€TO€COMMENT€ON€THE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY'S€FINALÏDETERMINATION.€€I€THINK€THOSE€ARE€ALL€CONSISTENT€WITHÏTHE€òòACTóó,€ALTHOUGH€THEY€MIGHT€NOT€HAVE€BEEN€SPELLED€OUTÐ ¨+p$, ÐPRECISELY€BY€THE€òòACTóó.€€Ð 8 Ðà àà x àAGAIN,€EACH€STEP€OF€THE€WAY€THE€PERMITTINGÏAUTHORITY€HAS€THE€RIGHT€AND€THE€RESPONSIBILITY€TO€MAKEÏTHE€ULTIMATE€DECISION€AS€TO€HOW€AND€WHEN€TO€PROCEED€ASÏLONG€AS€THEY€CONSULT€WITH€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€ONÏPOINTS€OF€DISPUTE€AND€ADDRESS€THE€CONCERNS€THAT€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€HAS€IN€SHAPE€OR€FORM.€€Ìà àà x àANOTHER€COMMENT€WAS€THAT€THERE€COULD€BEÏUNNECESSARY€DELAYS€IN€THE€PROCEDURE,€AND,€AGAIN,€THATÏWAS€REALLY€THE€OPPOSITE€OF€OUR€INTENT€IN€THAT€WEÏINTENDED€MANY€OF€THE€PROCEDURES€TO€TAKE€PLACE€AS€QUICKLYÏAS€POSSIBLE€IN€THE€PERMITTING€PROCESS€SO€THAT€THEÏINFORMATION€NECESSARY€TO€DO€AN€ANALYSIS€COULD€BEÏPROVIDED€UP€FRONT,€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER'S€CONCERNSÏCOULD€BE€EXPRESSED€UP€FRONT,€AND€THE€ANALYSIS€WOULDÏPROCEED€AT€THE€SAME€TIME€THAT€THE€REST€OF€THE€PERMITÏANALYSIS€WOULD€SO€THAT€THERE€WOULDN'T€BE€A€NEED€FOR€AÏSEPARATE€CLASSI€ANALYSIS€AFTER€THE€REST€OF€THE€PERMITÏHAD€ALREADY€BEEN€PROCESSED€AND€A€DETERMINATION€WASÏIMMINENT.Ìà àà x àTHERE€WAS€A€COMMENT€CONCERNING€THE€FACT€THATÏWE€WERE€EXTENDING€THE€COMPLETION€DETERMINATION€PROCESSÏBY€AT€LEAST€SIXTY€DAYS,€AND€THE€PROPOSED€PROCEDUREÐ ¨+p$, ÐACTUALLY€SAYS€IT€ALLOWS€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€THIRTYÏDAYS€TO€REVIEW€AN€APPLICATION€AND€TO€RESPOND€TO€THEÏPERMITTING€AUTHORITY€AS€TO€WHETHER€THEY€BELIEVE€THEÏPERMIT€WAS€COMPLETE€WITH€RESPECT€TO€CLASSI€INFORMATION,ÏBUT€I€THINK€THAT€IS€A€POINT€OF€CLARIFICATION.€€OURÏINTENT€WAS€TO€PROVIDE€A€THIRTY-DAY€PERIOD€OF€REVIEWÏPRIOR€TO€A€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION.€€Ìà àà x àAND€THAT'S€--€OUR€UNDERSTANDING€WAS€THATÏALSO€THAT€OFTENTIMES€THAT€IS€A€STANDARD€PERIOD€OF€TIMEÏFOR€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATIONS.€€IT€MAY€VARY€FROM€SOMEÏ--€IN€SOME€STATES,€BUT€THE€THIRTY€DAYS€WAS€NOT€ANÏUNREASONABLE€PERIOD€OF€TIME€TO€MAKE€THAT€TYPE€OFÏDETERMINATION.€Ìà àà x àANOTHER€COMMENT€WAS€THAT€IT€--€THE€APPROACHÏWE€CHOSE€REVERSED€THE€BURDEN€FROM€THE€FEDERAL€LANDÏMANAGER€TO€THE€APPLICANT,€AND,€AGAIN,€THAT€WAS€NOT€OURÏINTENT€NOR€DO€I€BELIEVE€THAT€THAT€IS€OUTCOME€IN€THAT€THEÏBURDEN€IS€ON€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€TO€MAKE€THEÏINITIAL€FINDING€OF€POTENTIAL€ADVERSE€IMPACT€WHICHÏTRIGGERS€THE€CLASSI€ANALYSIS€IN€THE€FIRST€PLACE.Ìà àà x àTHE€BURDEN€IS€THEN€RIGHTFULLY€ON€THEÏAPPLICANT€TO€SHOW€THAT€THE€CLASSI€INCREMENTS€WOULD€NOTÏBE€VIOLATED.€€IF€THEY€CAN€SHOW€THAT,€THEN€THAT'S€AÐ ¨+p$, ÐDETERMINATION€THEY€NEED€TO€MAKE€TO€THE€PERMITTINGÏAUTHORITY.€€IF€THAT€CAN€BE€DEMONSTRATED,€THEN€THE€BURDENÏIS€NOT€ON€THE€APPLICANT€TO€MAKE€A€FURTHER€FINDING€UNLESSÏTHE€FEDERAL€LAND€--€WELL,€THEN€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGERÏHAS€TO€SHOW€THAT€THERE€WOULD,€INDEED,€BE€AN€ADVERSEÏIMPACT.Ìà àà x àSO€I€THINK€THAT€PRETTY€MUCH€COVERS€MOST€OFÏTHE€COMMENTS€INVOLVING€THE€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€I€WOULD€ADD€TO€THAT€IS€--Ð x@  ÐAND€I€APOLOGIZE.€€I€DON'T€ACTUALLY€RECALL€WHO€BROUGHTÏTHIS€UP€IN€THE€HEARING€YESTERDAY,€BUT€THERE€WAS€AÏREFERENCE€TO€A€CLASSI€PROGRAM€THAT€IS€BEING€USED€BY€THEÏSTATE€OF€OREGON€AS€WELL€AS€--€JOHN€PAUL,€WAS€THAT€YOURÏREFERENCE?€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€(NODDED€AFFIRMATIVELY)Ð h0 Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€--€TO€THE€STATE€OF€OREGON€ANDÐ  Ø ÐALSO€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THE€SOUTH€COAST€AIR€QUALITYÏMANAGEMENT€DISTRIBUTION€AS€POSSIBLE€ALTERNATIVE€PROGRAMSÏTO€THE€EXTENT€THAT€PARTIES€FELT€THAT€THIS€PROPOSAL€WASÏTOO€STRINGENT€OR€NOT€ACCEPTABLE.Ìà àà x àAND,€JOHN€PAUL,€I€DON'T€KNOW€IF€YOU€CAN€GIVEÏUS€ANY€MORE€OF€AN€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€YEAH,€LET€ME€--Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€--€INPUT€ON€THAT.€€Ð 8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€SURE.€€LET€ME€JUST€SAY€THATРਠÐIN€OUR€CONFERENCE€CALLS€ON€THIS,€THAT€BOTH€OF€THOSEÏINDICATED€THAT€THEY€HAD€A€VERY€GOOD€WORKING€RELATIONSHIPÏWITH€THEIR€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGERS.€€AND€WHAT€WE€--€WHATÏWE'RE€ASKING€THEM€TO€DO€IS€TO€PROVIDE€THE€BASIS€FOR€THATÏWITH€THE€AGENCY€AND€TO€REVIEW€THE€PROPOSAL€AS€TO€HOWÏTHEY€FEEL€THAT€WOULD€AFFECT€THAT€RELATIONSHIP€THAT€THEYÏHAVE€WITH€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGERS.€Ìà àà x àSO€IT'S€NOT€TO€SAY€THAT€THEY€NECESSARILYÏENDORSED€EVERYTHING€THAT'S€IN€THE€PROPOSAL.€€IT'S€JUSTÏTO€SAY€THAT€THOSE€ARE€TWO€AGENCIES€THAT€WE'VE€HEARD€FROMÏTHAT€HAVE€A€GOOD€WORKING€RELATIONSHIP€THAT€WE€WILL€GO€TOÏTO€SUPPLEMENT€OUR€COMMENT€AND€TO€GIVE€YOU€THE,€YOU€KNOW,ÏTHE€BENEFIT€OF€WHAT€IT€IS€THAT€WORKS€REAL€WELL€THERE.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€AND€ALSO€AS€LONG€AS€THATÐ  Ø ÐMICROPHONE€--€CAN€YOU€GIVE€US€ANY€MORE€INPUT€IN€TERMS€OFÏTHE€DISCUSSIONS€AMONG€THE€STATES€AS€TO€IN€THEIR€REVIEWÏOF€THIS€PORTION€OF€THE€PACKAGE€WHAT€PROJECTED€IMPACTSÏTHEY€THOUGHT€THEY€MIGHT€SEE€IN€TERMS€OF€WORKLOAD,€ETÏCETERA,€SIMILAR€TO€THE€NSR€PORTION?Ìà àà x àò òMR.JOHN€PAUL:ó ó€€YES.€€AND€THAT€WAS€ONEÐ *È"* ÐWHERE,€OBVIOUSLY,€WE€HAD€VARYING€OPINIONS€ON€THAT.€€WEÐ ¨+p$, ÐHAVE€SOME€STATES€THAT€ARE€OPPOSED€TO€THIS,€AND€WHATÏWE'RE€DOING€IS€ENCOURAGING€THOSE€STATES€TO€MAKE€THEIRÏCOMMENTS€KNOWN,€YOU€KNOW,€TO€EPA.€€SO€WE€REALLY€AREÏPRETTY€MUCH€NEUTRAL€ON€THE€PROPOSAL€AS€AN€ASSOCIATION.€ÏWE'VE€GOT€STRONG€FEELINGS€BOTH€WAYS.€€WE€WANT€TO€GIVEÏTHE€AGENCY€THE€BENEFIT€OF€THE€PROGRAMS€THAT€FEEL€THATÏTHEY€HAVE€THE€GOOD€RELATIONSHIP€AND€HOPE€THAT€WE€CANÏBUILD€ON€THOSE.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€WE'VE€HEARD€NOW€BOTH€FROMÐ x@  ÐTHE€AGENCY€IN€TERMS€OF€CLARIFICATION€OF€SOME€OF€THEÏPOINTS€THAT€THEY€HEARD€THE€OTHER€DAY€AS€WELL€AS€WHATÏTHEY€INTENDED€TO€DO€IN€ATTEMPTING€TO€ADDRESS€A€STATUTORYÏPROVISION€THEY€WERE€TRYING€TO€IMPLEMENT.Ìà àà x àWHAT€ARE€COMMENTS€THAT€THE€MEMBERS€OF€THEÏFACA€MAY€HAVE€WITH€RESPECT€TO,€NOW,€THE€CLASSI€PORTIONÏOF€THE€PACKAGE?€€Ìà àà x àMIKE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€I€HAVE€A€QUESTION€FOR€DAN€ABOUTÐ `#(" ÐTHE€WHAT€I€THOUGHT€WAS€A€CONSENSUS€BEFORE.€€I'M€JUSTÏREADING€FROM€ONE€OF€THE€DOCUMENTS€THAT€WAS€GENERATEDÏBEFORE€THAT€SAID€THAT€THERE€APPEARED€TO€BE€CONSENSUS,ÏWITHIN€THAT€WORKGROUP€I€GUESS€YOU€WERE€TALKING€ABOUT,ÏTHAT€THE€"FLM'S€UNDERTAKE€THE€INITIAL€TASKS€OF€LISTINGÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHE€RESOURCES€THAT€ARE€RESPONSIBLE€FOR€THEIR€AREAS€BEINGÏSET€ASIDE€BY€CONGRESS;€SECONDLY,€IDENTIFYING€WHATÏRECEPTORS€WITHIN€THEIR€AREAS€ARE€RESPONSIVE€TO€AIRÏQUALITY€CHANGES;€THIRD,€SPECIFYING€HOW€THOSE€RECEPTORSÏARE€IMPACTED€BY€CHANGES€IN€AIR€QUALITY;€AND,€FOUR,ÏOUTLINING€CRITICALLY€IMPORTANT€METHODS€FOR€ASSESSINGÏTHOSE€EFFECTS."Ìà àà x àDO€YOU€THINK€YOUR€PROPOSAL€CARRIES€OUT€THATÏCONSENSUS€OF€THE€WORKGROUP?Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€I€THINK€IT€ADDRESSED€IT,€BUTÐ  è ÐIT€ALSO€RECOGNIZED€THAT€WE€COULDN'T€SAY€ULTIMATELY€THATÏUNTIL€EVERYTHING€IS€IDENTIFIED€AND€ADDRESSED€DOWN€TO€THEÏFINAL€DETAIL€THAT€YOU€COULDN'T€MAKE€AN€AQRV€ASSESSMENTÏOR€THERE€COULDN'T€BE€AN€ADVERSE€IMPACT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€WHAT€HAPPENED€TO€THE€IDEA€THATÐ h0 ÐTHE€FLM€SHOULD€HAVE€SOME€AFFIRMATIVE€RESPONSIBILITY€--€IÏTHINK€THAT'S€THE€TERM€IN€THE€STATUTE€--€TO€ENGAGE€IN€AÏPROCESS€OF€IDENTIFYING€THE€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€UPÏFRONT,€PREFERABLY€THROUGH€A€RULEMAKING,€SO€THAT€THEÏRULES€OF€THE€GAME€WOULD€BE€CLEAR?Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€WELL,€WE€STOPPED€SHORT€OFÐ X( !( ÐRULEMAKING,€BUT€WE€DID€SAY€THAT€THEY€SHOULD€--€DURINGÏTHE€PREAPPLICATION€MEETING€--€THEY€SHOULD€IDENTIFY€ALLÐ ¨+p$, ÐAQRV'S€THAT€THEY€WERE€CONCERNED€ABOUT.€€THEY€SHOULDÏUNDERSTAND€WHAT€POLLUTANTS€WOULD€BE€EMITTED€BY€THISÏPARTICULAR€SOURCE€AND€WHETHER€THERE€WAS€EVEN€AÏRELATIONSHIP€BETWEEN€THOSE€POLLUTANTS€AND€THE€AQRV'S€OFÏCONCERN,€THAT€IT€WAS€TO€THEIR€ADVANTAGE€TO€IDENTIFYÏTHESE€AQRV'S€UP€FRONT€AND€TO,€IN€THEIR€WRITTEN€NOTICEÏTHEY€HAD€TO€IDENTIFY€THE€SPECIFIC€AQRV'S€OF€CONCERN,€THEÏPOLLUTANTS€THAT€WERE€TO€BE€EMITTED,€AND€THE€RELATIONSHIPÏBETWEEN€THE€TWO€AS€PART€OF€THE€WRITTEN€NOTICE,€AND€THATÏWAS€WHERE€THE€APPLICANT€HAD€TO€FOCUS€THEIR€CLASSIÏANALYSIS.€Ìà àà x àTHAT€WAS€THE€INTENT,€THAT€ALL€OF€THAT€BEÏUNDERSTOOD€UP€FRONT€AND€THAT€THE€CLASSI€ANALYSIS€WOULDÏNOT€GO€BEYOND€THE€ADVERSE€--€POTENTIAL€ADVERSE€IMPACTS,ÏOR€LET€ALLEGATIONS€THAT€WERE€MADE€IN€THAT€WRITTENÏNOTICE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€IS€IT€YOUR€INTENT€THAT€THAT€HASÐ ¸!€  ÐTO€BE€DONE€CASE€BY€CASE,€PROJECT€BY€PROJECT,€PARK€BYÏPARK,€AREA€BY€AREA?Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€THAT'S€PRETTY€MUCH€WHERE€WEÐ °&x& ÐSTAND€RIGHT€NOW:€€IN€LIGHT€OF€THE€PRESENT€KNOWLEDGE€ANDÏINFORMATION€AVAILABLE,€THAT€IF€WE€WAITED€FOR€SOME€--ÏFIRST€OF€ALL,€I'M€NOT€SURE€A€NATIONAL€AQRV€POLICY€ISÐ ¨+p$, ÐAPPROPRIATE,€BUT€I€DON'T€THINK€IT'S€POSSIBLE€RIGHT€NOW.€ÏAND€WE€DID€NOT€BELIEVE€THAT€THE€PROGRAM€SHOULD€BE€HELDÏON€HOLD€UNTIL€WE€KNEW€EVERYTHING€WE€NEEDED€TO€KNOW€ABOUTÏEACH€AQRV.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€MAYBE€WE€CAN€HEAR€FROM€OREGONÐ Ø   ÐAND€GET€A€BETTER€IDEA.Ìà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.RUSCIGNO:ó ó€€I€UNFORTUNATELY€WON'T€BE€ABLEРИ  ÐTO€GIVE€YOU€ALL€THE€DETAIL€OF€OUR€PROGRAM€--€I'M€NOT€THEÏEXPERT€ON€CLASSI€FOR€OUR€STATE€--€BUT€WE€HAVE€A€GOODÏRELATIONSHIP,€AND€IT€WORKS.€€IT'S€NOT€TO€SAY€WE€ALWAYSÏAGREE,€BUT€WE€WORK€TOGETHER.€€WE€GET€TOGETHER€INÏPREAPPLICATION€MEETINGS.€€WE€ARE€ABLE€TO€GET€ADDITIONALÏINFORMATION€ABOUT€POTENTIAL€IMPACTS.Ìà àà x àWHAT€BOTHERS€ME€IS€THE€PRESCRIPTIVE€NATUREÏOF€THE€PROPOSAL.€€OUR€UNDERLYING€RULE€IS€THAT€--€THATÏMAKES€A€GOOD€WORKING€PROGRAM€IS€NOT€NEARLY€ASÏPRESCRIPTIVE€AS€THIS.€€AND€JUST€BEING€SO€PRESCRIPTIVE,ÏIT€--€TO€ME€IT€--€THERE'S€A€GREATER€LIKELIHOOD€OFÏLENGTHENING€THE€PROCESS,€I€THINK.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€JOHN,€IS€YOUR€PROCESS€FRONT-ENDÐ X( !( ÐLOADED€THE€WAY€THIS€ONE€WASN'T€TRYING€TO€BE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.RUSCIGNO:ó ó€€NO.€€NO,€IT'S€NOT.€€AND€ONEÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHAT€BOTHERED€ME€IN€THIS€FRONT-END€LOADING,€WE€HEAR€AÏLOT€OF€RUMORS€ABOUT€POTENTIAL€SOURCES€THAT€MAY€BE€COMINGÏINTO€OUR€STATE,€SOME€NEAR€CLASSI€AREAS.€€AND€IF€I€HAVEÏTO€NOTIFY€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€FOR€EVERY€RUMOR€IÏHEAR,€THAT€BECOMES€UNWIELDY.€€SO€WE€TYPICALLY€DO€IT€WHENÏWE€GET€A€COMPLETE€APPLICATION€IN.Ìà àà x àBUT€IN€MOST€OF€THE€MAJOR€SOURCES,€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€HEARS€THE€SAME€RUMORS€WE€DO.€€SO€HEÏHAS€THAT€INFORMATION.€€SO€I'M€A€LITTLE€WARY€OF€BUILDINGÏTHE€COMPLETENESS€--€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION€WITH€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER.€€I€THINK€THAT€COULD€LENGTHEN€OUTÏTHE€PROCESS.€€WE€DON'T€HAVE€IT,€AND€IT€SEEMS€TO€WORKÏWITHOUT€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€SO€YOU€DON'T€TALK€TO€THE€FLM'S,Ð Àˆ ÐAS€FAR€AS€YOU€KNOW,€UNTIL€AFTER€THE€COMPLETENESSÏDETERMINATION€IS€MADE?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RUSCIGNO:ó ó€€SOMETIMES€WE€TALK€TO€THEM,Ð ¸!€  ÐBUT€IT'S€VERY€--€IT'S€AN€INFORMAL€ONE.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€YEAH.Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àò òMR.RUSCIGNO:ó ó€€THEY'LL€HEAR€ABOUT€IT,€ASK€USÐ °&x& ÐWHAT€WE€KNOW€ABOUT€IT.€€IF€--€THEY'LL€HEAR€WE€HAVE€ANÏAPPLICATION€IN€AND€ASK€US€QUESTIONS€ABOUT€IT,€AND€WEÏTALK€WITH€THEM€AND€SOMETIMES€WILL€BRING€THE€PERMITTEE€INÐ ¨+p$, ÐALSO,€BUT€THERE'S€NOT€A€FORMAL€ROLE€OF€THE€FEDERAL€LANDÏMANAGER€IN€THE€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€KAREN?Ð ˆ P Ðà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€A€COUPLE€POINTS.€€I€DON'T€THINKÐ 0 ø ÐTHERE'S€ANY€MYSTERY€OF€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€ARE.€ÏIT€JUST€--€THE€CONFUSION€--€WHEN€WE€KNOW€THEY'REÏVISIBILITY,€SOILS,€STREAMS,€RESOURCES€IN€THE€PARK.€€WHATÏI€THINK€YOU'RE€REALLY€GETTING€AT,€MIKE,€WAS€YOU€WANT€TOÏKNOW€SPECIFIC€CASE€--€YOU€WANT€--€YOU€KNOW€--€WANT€TOÏKNOW€THE€SPECIFIC€POLLUTANT-LOADING€NUMBERS,€OR€YOUÏWANT--THAT'S€THE€KIND€OF€NUMBER€YOU€WANT.€€YOU€WANTÏIMPACT€NUMBERS.€€YOU€DON'T€--€BECAUSE€I€THINK€THE€AQRV'SÏARE€KNOWN.€€Ìà àà x àAND€ALL€I€CAN€SAY,€AND€WE'VE€SAID€IT€BEFORE,ÏI€MEAN,€WE'D€LOVE€TO€KNOW€--€WE'D€LOVE€TO€HAVE€SOMEÏMAGIC€NUMBERS€AND€KNOW€THAT€THESE€ARE€THE€NUMBERS€THATÏARE€PROTECTIVE.€€BUT€IT'S€JUST€NOT€THAT€SIMPLE,€ANDÏCONGRESS€RECOGNIZED€THAT,€AND€I'M€JUST€GOING€TO€--€IFÏYOU€BEAR€WITH€ME€--€GIVE€A€BRIEF€EXCERPT€FROM€THEÏLEGISLATIVE€HISTORY.Ìà àà x àIT€SAYS,€"EACH€CASE€OF€SUSPECTED€CLASSIÏINTRUSION€MUST€BE€ANALYZED€ON€AN€INDIVIDUAL€BASIS€WITHÏTHE€DECISION€ON€WHETHER€OR€NOT€A€PERMIT€IS€ISSUEDÐ ¨+p$, ÐRESTING€WITH€THE€STATE.€€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€HOLDSÏA€POWERFUL€TOOL.€€HE€IS€REQUIRED€TO€PROTECT€FEDERALÏLANDS€FROM€DETERIORATION€OF€AN€ESTABLISHED€VALUE€EVENÏWHERE€CLASSI€NUMBERS€ARE€NOT€EXCEEDED."Ìà àà x àSO€IT'S€--€IT€IS€--€IT€IS€A€CASE-BY-CASEÏDETERMINATION,€AND€I€THINK€THIS€PROCESS€HAS€BEEN€SETÏOUT--I€MEAN,€I'D€BE€KIDDING€YOU€IF€IT€DOESN'T€PUT€--ÏIT€IS€MORE€FORMAL,€AS€JOHN€POINTED€OUT,€AND€IT€PUTS€SOMEÏVERY€TIGHT€TIME€BURDENS€ON€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGERÏWHICH€--€AND€WE€KIND€OF€HAD€TO€SWALLOW€HARD€TO€LIVE€WITHÏTHE€SEVEN€DAYS€TO€REVIEW€AN€ELECTRONIC€BULLETIN€BOARD,ÏWHICH€WE€ALL€HOPE€AND€PRAY€IS€GOING€TO€BE€UP€AND€RUNNINGÏAND€UP-TO-DATE,€TO€REQUEST€A€PSD€PERMIT€APPLICATION,ÏWHEN€NOW€WE'RE€SUPPOSED€TO€GET€THEM€ROUTINELY?€€I€MEAN,ÏWE€DON'T€ALWAYS,€TRUE,€BUT€WE'RE€SUPPOSED€TO€BE€GETTINGÏTHEM.€€SO€THAT'S€JUST€ONE€EXAMPLE.€Ìà àà x àTHE€NOTIFICATION€WE€TALKED€ABOUT€ANDÏPRELIMINARY€ADVERSE€IMPACT.€€I€MEAN€THERE'S€A€LOT€MOREÏPAPERWORK€BURDENS€ON€US€UNDER€SOME€VERY€SPECIFIC€TIMEÏFRAMES,€BUT,€YOU€KNOW,€PEOPLE€WANTED€MORE€CERTAINTY€ANDÏMORE€UP-FRONT€KNOWLEDGE,€AND€THIS€PACKAGE€CERTAINLY€DOESÏTHAT.€€SO€I€JUST€WANT€TO€MAKE€IT€CLEAR€THAT€I€THINK,€YOUÏKNOW,€EPA€HAS€REALLY€--€I€DON'T€ENVY€THE€JOB€THEY'VE€HADÐ ¨+p$, ÐTRYING€TO€BALANCE€ALL€THE€DIFFERENT€CONSIDERATIONS.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€THINK€IT€WOULD€BE€HELPFUL€FORРਠÐPEOPLE€TO€ADDRESS€THE€ASSUMPTION€THAT€KAREN€HAS€PUT€OUTÏTHERE€THAT€WE€ALL€KNOW€WHAT€THE€AQRV'S€ARE.€€THAT'S€AÏREAL€PIVOTAL€ISSUE€HERE€THAT€IS€IMPORTANT.€Ìà àà x àMIKE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.BARR:ó ó€€I€THINK€IT€WOULD€BE€VERY€HELPFUL,Ð (ð  ÐKAREN,€JUST€TO€HAVE€A€LIST€OF€SOME€EXAMPLES€OF€WHAT€THEYÏARE€AND€HOW€THEY'VE€BEEN€QUANTIFIED€AND€MIGHT€BEÏMEASURED€OR€ASSESSED.€€IF€PEOPLE€KNOW€WHAT€THEY€ARE€ORÏIF€THEY€ARE€AVAILABLE€IN€SOME€SOURCES€ALREADY,€I€THINKÏTHAT€WOULD€BE€EXTREMELY€HELPFUL€IF€YOU€COULD€PROVIDEÏTHAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€OKAY.€€AGAIN,€I€GUESS€WE'RE€--Ð Àˆ ÐI'M€NOT€COMMUNICATING€THIS€CLEARLY.€€THE€--€WHEN€--€THEÏTERM€"VALUES"€DOES€NOT€MEAN€A€NUMBER.€€OKAY?€€VISIBILITYÏIS€AN€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUE.€€VISIBILITY€IS€NOT€AÏNUMBER.€€THAT'S€A€RESOURCE€WITHIN€OUR€PARKS€AND€WITHINÏOUR€FORESTS€THAT€IS€SET€ASIDE€TO€BE€PROTECTED.€€PEOPLEÏCOME€TO€THE€NATIONAL€PARKS€TO€BREATHE€CLEAN€AIR,€TO€SEEÏHEALTHY€TREES€AND€VEGETATION€AND€WILDLIFE,€AND€TO€SEEÏTHE€MAGNIFICENT,€CLEAR€VISTAS.€€NOW€THAT'S€PART€OF€THEÏVISIBILITY€ASPECT.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àTHE€VEGETATION,€THAT'S€ANOTHER€AQRV,€BUTÏTHAT'S€DIFFERENT€FROM€AN€IMPACT€NUMBER€AND€WHAT'S€ANÏADVERSE€IMPACT€WHICH€IS,€I€THINK,€IS€WHAT€YOU€WERE€--ÏWHAT€YOU'RE€GETTING€AT.€€AND€THAT'S€THE€KIND€OFÏINFORMATION€THAT€--€YOU€KNOW,€POLLUTANT-LOADINGS€--€THATÏWE'VE€BEEN€RESEARCHING,€AND€WE€HAVE€SOME€KNOWLEDGE€OFÏBUT€CERTAINLY€DO€NOT€HAVE€COMPLETE€KNOWLEDGE.€€AND€IT€ISÏA€CASE-BY-CASE€DETERMINATION,€AS€THE€LAW€REQUIRES.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€KAREN,€COULD€I€JUST€ASK€YOU€TOÐ x@  ÐADDRESS€WHAT€JOHN€RUSCIGNO€SAID.€€DO€YOU€HAVE€ANYÏKNOWLEDGE€--€I€MEAN,€IT€SOUNDS€LIKE€THE€OREGON€PROGRAMÏIS€LESS€PRESCRIPTIVE,€YET€IT'S€WORKING€OUT.€€DO€YOU€HAVEÏANY€KNOWLEDGE€OF€WHETHER€THAT€IS€THE€CASE€IN€OREGON€ORÏWHETHER€YOU€HAVE€HAD€PROBLEMS€WITH€OTHER€STATES?€€I'MÏJUST€CURIOUS.€€THERE'S€A€DIFFERENCE€OF€--Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€I€REALLY€DON'T€--Ð  Ø Ðà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€--€IMPRESSION€HERE.Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€MAYBE€I'LL€DEFER€TO€JOHN.€€IÐ `#(" ÐREALLY€DON'T€HAVE€ANY€--€I€HAVEN'T€HAD€ANY€PERSONALÏKNOWLEDGE€OF€WHAT€THE€OREGON€--Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€I€GUESS€WHAT€I'M€TRYING€TO€GETÐ X( !( ÐAT€--€AND€MAYBE€YOU€AND€JOHN€CAN€ADDRESS€THIS€A€LITTLEÏBIT€--€IS,€I€MEAN,€WE€HAVE€LAID€OUT€A€FAIRLY€CLEAR€AND,Ð ¨+p$, ÐSOME€MIGHT€ARGUE,€CERTAINLY€PRESCRIPTIVE€PROGRAM€FOR€HOWÏTO€GET€THIS€NOTIFICATION€TO€OCCUR.€€I€GUESS€WHAT€I'MÏWONDERING,€GIVEN€WHAT€JOHN€HAS€SAID€AND€PERHAPS€WHATÏJOHN€PAUL€MAY€FIND€OUT€AS€WELL,€MAYBE€THAT€LEVEL€OFÏPRESCRIPTION€ISN'T€NECESSARY,€AND€I'M€TRYING€TO€GET€AÏREAD€FROM€YOU€ON€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.BUNYAK:ó ó€€I'LL€TRY€TO€ADDRESS€THAT,Ð (ð  ÐLYDIA.€€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMR.BUNYAK:ó ó€€THIS€IS€JOHN€BUNYAK,€PARKÐ  è ÐSERVICE.€€I€THINK€OVERALL€THERE€ARE€A€LOT€OF€STATES€THATÏPROVIDE€US€WITH€THE€PROPER€NOTIFICATION€AND€SEND€USÏAPPLICATIONS€AND€INVITE€US€TO€PREAPPLICATION€MEETINGSÏAND€KEEP€US€IN€THE€LOOP.€€SO,€I€MEAN,€IT'S€NOT€A€TOTALÏDISASTER€IN€THAT€AREA.€€BUT€THERE€ARE€--€ON€THE€FLIPÏSIDE€OF€THAT,€THERE€ARE€OCCASIONS€WHERE€WE€DON'T€HEAR€OFÏAPPLICATIONS.€€AND,€YOU€KNOW,€YEARS€AGO€BACK€IN€1990€--ÏWELL,€VIRGINIA€IS€AN€EXAMPLE€OF€WHERE€THERE€WERE€FIFTEENÏOR€TWENTY€--€I€THINK€FIFTEEN€COGENERATION€UTILITY-TYPEÏSOURCES€THAT€WERE€UNDERGOING€PSD€REVIEW,€AND€A€LOT€OFÏTHOSE€SOURCES€WERE€BETWEEN€100€AND€200€KILOMETERS,€ANDÏWE€WEREN'T€EVEN€NOTIFIED€OF€THOSE€TYPE€SOURCES.€€ANDÏONCE€WE€DID,€WE€WERE€ALARMED€OF€THE€POTENTIAL€IMPACTS€OFÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHOSE€SOURCES,€AND€WE€LOOKED€AT€THEM€AND€GOT€INTO€THEÏòòFEDERAL€REGISTERóó€NOTICE€THE€ADVERSE€IMPACT€DETERMINATIONРਠÐPROCESS€AND€SO€FORTH.Ìà àà x àSO€I€THINK€IN€GENERAL€THERE€ARE€SOME€STATESÏOUT€THERE€THAT€WE€WORK€WELL€WITH.€€THERE€ARE€OTHERS€THATÏWE€JUST€DON'T€HAVE€THAT€COOPERATIVE€RELATIONSHIP.Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€THANKS.Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€JOHN?РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMR.DANIEL:ó ó€€WELL,€I€GUESS€MAYBE€VIRGINIAÐ x@  ÐDID€TRIGGER€ALL€OF€THIS€MESS€TO€START€WITH.€€THAT€MIGHTÏBE€THE€POLITE€WAY€TO€PUT€IT.€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€COULD€YOU€USE€YOUR€MICROPHONE,Ð p8 ÐJOHN,€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.DANIEL:ó ó€€YEAH.Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€--€AND€GET€A€LITTLE€CLOSER?Ð h0 Ðà àà x àò òMR.DANIEL:ó ó€€WE'VE€GOT€A€MEMORANDUM€OFÐ  Ø ÐAGREEMENT€WITH€BOTH€THE€NATIONAL€--€SHENANDOAH€NATIONALÏPARK€LAND€MANAGER€AND€ALSO€THE€JAMES€RIVER€FAC€LANDÏMANAGER,€AND€I€THINK€WE€HAVE€A€GOOD€WORKING€RELATIONSHIPÏWITH€BOTH€OF€THEM.€€THAT€DOESN'T€MEAN,€HOWEVER,€THAT€THEÏPERMITTING€PROCESS€DOESN'T€GET€VERY€CONTENTIOUS€ANDÏTIME-CONSUMING.Ìà àà x àAND€FOR€ANY€STATE€THAT€THINKS€IT'S€NOT€GOINGÐ ¨+p$, ÐTO€BE€TIME-CONSUMING,€THEN€I'VE€GOT€NEWS€FOR€YOU.€€IFÏYOU'VE€GOT€A€CLASSI€AREA,€AND€YOU€GET€INVOLVED€IN€THIS,ÏIT'S€GOING€TO€TAKE€A€LOT€OF€TIME€TO€DEAL€WITH€ALL€OF€THEÏISSUES€THAT€GET€RAISED.€€SO€IT'S€--€IT'S€NOT€A€REALÏSMOOTH€PROCESS,€BUT€I€THINK€WE€DO€HAVE€A€GOOD€WORKINGÏRELATIONSHIP€WITH€THE€LAND€MANAGERS,€BUT€IT€GETS€VERYÏCONTENTIOUS€AT€TIMES,€ALSO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€JOHN,€DOES€THE€PROCEDUREРИ  ÐTHAT'S€PROPOSED€CREATE€MORE€DELAYS,€OR€DO€YOU€SEE€WHEREÏIT€ADDRESSES€SOME€OF€THE€PROBLEMS€THAT€YOU'VE€HAD€IN€THEÏPAST?Ìà àà x àò òMR.DANIEL:ó ó€€I€DON'T€THINK€WHAT€YOU€HAVEÐ p8 ÐPROPOSED€IS€THAT€MUCH€DIFFERENT€THAN€WHAT€WE€ARE€ALREADYÏDOING.€€AS€SOON€AS€WE€KNOW€THAT€A€SOURCE€IS€GOING€TO€BEÏPSD€ANYWHERE€IN€THE€STATE,€WHETHER€IT'S€WITHINÏ100KILOMETERS€OR€200€KILOMETERS€OR€ANYWHERE,€WE€LET€THEÏLAND€MANAGERS€KNOW€THAT.€€OBVIOUSLY,€IF€IT'S€CLOSE€IN,ÏTHEN€THERE'S€A€LOT€MORE€DETAIL€WORK€THAT€HAS€TO€BE€DONEÏWITH€THE€LAND€MANAGERS.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€ONE€THING€THAT€WE€DO€LIKE€IN€THISÏPROPOSAL€IS€EPA'S€PROPOSED€LEVELS€OF€SIGNIFICANCEÏCOMPARED€TO€WHAT€THE€LAND€MANAGERS€HAVE€PROPOSED.€€THESEÏARE€VERY€CLOSE€TO€WHAT€WE€SUGGESTED€TO€EPA€A€LONG€TIMEÐ ¨+p$, ÐAGO€AS€A€WAY€TO€DEAL€WITH€WHAT€IS€INSIGNIFICANT.€€SO€IÏTHINK€OUR€CURRENT€PROCESS€IS€--€TRACKS€PRETTY€CLOSE€WITHÏWHAT€YOU'VE€GOT€IN€HERE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àICLAL?Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€JUST€--€IT'S€ICLAL€ATAY,€FROM€NEWÐ €H  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àAND€WE'RE€ALWAYS€IN€THE€POSITION€OF€HAVINGÏTO€JUDGE€IS€THIS€REALLY€A€POTENTIAL€IMPACT€OR€NOT.€ÏSOMETIMES€THE€PERMITTEE€STEPS€IN€AND€SAYS€FORGET€IT.€ÏI'LL€JUST€PUT€UP€THE€MONITORS€TO€SAVE€TIME,€AND€WE€LETÏIT€--€AND€THAT'S€THE€WAY€IT€HAPPENS.€€OTHER€TIMESÏPERMITTEES€OR€THE€APPLICANT€SAYS€I€DON'T€THINK€THERE'S€AÏGOOD€CASE€THERE,€AND€WE€AGREE,€AND€IT€DOESN'T€GO€IN.€€WEÏRETAIN€THE€RIGHT€TO€MAKE€THAT€FINAL€DECISION,€AND€ITÏSEEMS€TO€WORK.€Ìà àà x àTHE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€IN€OUR€AREA€MAYBEÏWANTS€MORE€AUTHORITY€IN€THAT€DECISION,€BUT€UNDER€THEÏCURRENT€SYSTEM€HE€DOESN'T€HAVE€IT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€THINK€WHAT€DAN€WAS€SAYING€ISÐ ¸!€  ÐCERTAINLY€THE€PROPOSAL€DOESN'T€UNDERCUT€THAT€CONCEPT€ATÏALL.€€IT€STILL€LEAVES€IT€WITH€THE€DECISION€AT€THE€STATEÏ--€AT€THE€STATE€LEVEL€AND€YOUR€CONTROL.€€Ìà àà x àI€GUESS€THE€QUESTION€I€WAS€TRYING€TO€ASK€IS,ÏYOU€KNOW,€EVERYBODY'S€GOT€THIS€INFORMAL€--€AND,€JOHN,ÏYOU'RE€RIGHT,€AND€YOU'VE€HAD€TO€JUMP€ON€SOME€PEOPLE,Ð ¨+p$, 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àWITH€REGARD€TO€THE€LENGTH€OF€TIME€IT€TAKESÏTO€PROTECT€THE€CITIZENS'€PUBLIC€LANDS,€IT€IS€NOT€AÏSIMPLE€PROCESS,€AS€PEOPLE€HAVE€POINTED€OUT,€AND€IT€TAKESÏSOME€TIME.€€WE€HAVE€GONE€THROUGH€THE€PUBLIC€PROCESS€INÏHAVING€PUBLIC€MEETINGS€WHICH€ASK€CITIZENS,€ASK€INDUSTRY,ÏASK€ENVIRONMENTAL€GROUPS/ADVOCACY€GROUPS,€ASK€STATEÏORGANIZATIONS€--€THEY€HAVE€ALL€PARTICIPATED€IN€THESEÏMEETINGS€--€JUST€WHAT€IT€IS€THEY€WANT€TO€PROTECT,€I.E.,ÏSPECIFICALLY,€WHAT€THE€AQRV€IS€AND€WHAT€LEVEL.Ìà àà x àSO€WE€HAVE€GOTTEN€FEEDBACK€FROM€THOSE€WHOÏARE€AFFECTED€SPECIFICALLY€AROUND€THESE€PARTICULARÏCLASSI€AREAS€THAT€WE€MANAGE,€88€OF€THEM,€WHAT€IT€ISÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHEY€WANT€TO€PROTECT.€€IT€IS€UPON€THAT€ADVICE€ANDÏRECOMMENDATION€THAT€WE€ARE€ATTEMPTING€TO€ASSEMBLEÏINFORMATION€THAT€OUR€DECISION-MAKERS€CAN€MAKE€A€JUDGMENTÏON.€€SO€WE€FEEL€WE'VE€GONE€THROUGH€A€PROCESS€WHICHÏILLUMINATES€AS€MUCH€AS€POSSIBLE€WHAT€THE€ISSUES€ARE,ÏWHAT€THE€AQRV'S€ARE,€AND€HOW€WE€CAN€GO€ABOUT€ADDRESSINGÏTHEM.€€Ìà àà x àSTILL€IT€LEAVES€A€LOT€TO€BE€DETERMINED.€€ASÏKAREN€WAS€POINTING€OUT,€IT€IS€NOT€AN€EXACT€SCIENCE.€€ITÏIS€A€BIOLOGICAL€SCIENCE€IN€MOST€CASES,€AND€IT'S€A€VERYÏDIFFICULT€THING€TO€DETERMINE.€Ìà àà x àI€GUESS€ONE€THING€I€WOULD€BRING€UP€WITHÏREGARD€TO€THE€ISSUE€ABOUT€IT'S€SMALL€--€YOU€KNOW,€AQRVÏ--€RATHER€THE€RESOURCES€ARE€SMALL€ISSUE,€SMALL€ISSUES€--ÏYOU€KNOW,€SMALL€POTATOES€--€WITH€REGARD€TO€THE€EXISTINGÏSOURCES€AND€THE€EXISTING€BURDEN€OUT€THERE.€€I€WOULDÏENCOURAGE€EPA€TO€MAKE€SURE€THAT€THE€BATON€--€THE€MESSAGEÏHAS€BEEN€PASSED€FROM€THIS€FACA€GROUP€TO€THE€OTHERÏEXISTING€FACA€GROUP€ADDRESSING€EXISTING€SOURCES€ANDÏREGIONAL€HAZE,€PARTICULATE,€AND€OZONE.€€Ìà àà x àTHAT,€INDEED,€WE€ARE€CONCERNED€THAT€EXISTINGÏSOURCES€ARE€A€BIG€PART€OF€THE€PROBLEM€IN€ADDRESSINGÏCLASSI€AREAS€AND€THAT€THERE€NEEDS€TO€BE€SOME€MARRIAGEÐ ¨+p$, ÐBETWEEN€RECOMMENDATIONS€THAT€COME€OUT€OF€THIS€GROUP€ANDÏIMPLEMENTATION€OF€ITEMS€THAT€THEY€GENERATE.€€AND€FROMÏWHAT€I€HAVE€SEEN€IN€A€BRIEF€TWO-HOUR€SESSION€YESTERDAYÏAT€ONE€OF€THEIR€WORKING€GROUPS,€IT'S€REALLY€NOT€BEINGÏADDRESSED€AS,€PROBABLY,€AS€MUCH€AS€MANY€OF€US€WOULD€LIKEÏTO€SEE€HERE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€ICLAL?Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€ICLAL€ATAY,€FROM€NEW€JERSEY€DEP.€Ð И  ÐI€HAVE€A€SIMPLE€QUESTION€ON€COMPLETENESS.€€IN€THEÏPAST--IN€CURRENT€RULES€A€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION€ISÏBEING€MADE€BY€THE€PERMITTING€AGENCY€SOLELY.€€THEÏPROPOSED€RULES€INDICATE€THAT€THE€COMPLETENESSÏDETERMINATION€WILL€BE€MADE€BY€THE€PERMITTING€AGENCY€ANDÏCOMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION€WILL€BE€MADE€BY€THE€FEDERALÏLAND€MANAGER.€€Ìà àà x àAND€WHAT€CONSTITUTES€A€COMPLETE€APPLICATION,ÏTHE€CRITERIA,€IS€LISTED€--€IS€OUTLINED€IN€THE€RULES.€ÏTHE€FACT€THAT€YOU€HAVE€A€BACT€ANALYSIS,€AIR€QUALITYÏIMPACT€ANALYSIS,€VISIBILITY€ANALYSIS,€INCREMENT€ANALYSISÏIS€OUTLINED€IN€THE€RULES.€€I'M€QUESTIONING€WHETHER€ISÏTHIS€AN€APPROPRIATE€USE€OF€RESOURCES€TO€HAVE€DOUBLEÏCOMPLETENESS€REVIEW.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€WE€DIDN'T€SEE€IT€--Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€THANK€YOU.€Ð 8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€WE€DIDN'T€SEE€IT€AS€A€DOUBLEРਠÐOR€A€DUPLICATIVE€REVIEW.€€WE€SAW€IT€AS€THE€PERMITÏCOULDN'T€BE€CONSIDERED€COMPLETE€IF€IT€DIDN'T€ADDRESSÏCLASSI€ISSUES.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€WELL,€THE€PERMITTING€AGENCY€HASÐ €H  ÐBEEN€ADDRESSING€THEM€UNTIL€NOW€TO€MAKE€SURE€THAT€THE€ÏVISIBILITY€ANALYSIS€WAS€THERE,€THE€IMPACT€ANALYSIS€WASÏDONE.€€WE€WOULD€NEED€TO€CLARIFY€IF€THERE€IS€SOMETHINGÏADDITION€--€IN€ADDRESS€TO€THOSE€THAT€THE€FEDERAL€LANDÏMANAGER€WOULD€MAKE€SO€THAT€IT€WOULD€BE€CLEAR€TO€THEÏAPPLICANTS€AND€THE€PERMITTING€AGENCY€WHAT€ADDITIONALÏITEMS€IS€BEING€LOOKED€AT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€WELL,€THE€INTENT,€AGAIN,€WASÐ Àˆ ÐTHE€PROVIDE€THE€APPLICANT€WITH,€FIRST€OF€ALL,€THE€CLAIMÏTHAT€THERE€WOULD€--€THAT€THERE€WAS€A€POTENTIAL€ADVERSEÏIMPACT€AND€WHAT€THE€POTENTIAL€ADVERSE€IMPACTS€WERE€SOÏTHEY€KNEW€WHAT€INFORMATION€WOULD€BE€EXPECTED€OF€THEM€INÏTHE€APPLICATION€IN€TERMS€OF€PROJECTING€ANY€PREDICTEDÏPOLLUTANT€IMPACTS€AS€FAR€AWAY€AS€THAT€CLASSI€AREA€WAS.€ÌTHOSE€WERE€THE€IMPACTS€THAT€NEEDED€TO€BE€ADDRESSED€INÏTHE€APPLICATION.€€Ìà àà x àTHE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€CONTINUES€TO€MAKEÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHE€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION,€BUT€THE€FEDERAL€LANDÏMANAGER€HAS€THE€OPPORTUNITY€TO€PROVIDE€INPUT€INTO€THATÏFROM€THEIR€PERSPECTIVE.€€BUT€THEY€DON'T€MAKE€THEÏCOMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION.€€THEIR€INPUT€HAS€TO€BEÏCONSIDERED€AND€CONSULTATION€IS€EXPECTED€IF€THERE'SÏDIFFERENCES€OF€OPINION,€BUT€THE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITYÏSTILL€MAKES€THE€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION.€Ìà àà x àBUT€IT€NEEDS€TO€CONSIDER€WHAT€IT€BELIEVES€TOÏBE€SUFFICIENT€CLASSI€INFORMATION€TO€ADDRESS€THEÏCONCERNS€THAT€WERE€ALLEGED€BY€THE€WRITTEN€NOTICE€THAT'SÏREQUIRED€PRIOR€TO€THAT€DETERMINATION€--€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ICLAL,€DO€YOU€WANT€TO€--Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€--€RATHER€THAN€WAITING€--Ð à Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€YOU€CAN€GO€AHEAD.Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€--€RATHER€THAN€WAITING€TILLÐ h0 ÐPUBLIC€COMMENT€PERIOD€OR€SOME€PERIOD€WELL€INTO€THEÏANALYTICAL€PROCESS€TO€FIND€OUT€THAT€THE€FEDERAL€LANDÏMANAGER€HAS€A€CONCERN,€AND€THE€APPLICANT€NEVER€EVEN€WASÏAWARE€OF€IT€AND€CERTAINLY€DIDN'T€ATTEMPT€TO€ADDRESS€ITÏBECAUSE€THEY€DIDN'T€KNOW€IT€EXISTED.Ìà àà x àò òMS.ATAY:ó ó€€WELL,€I€THINK€TO€FOLLOW€UP€ONÐ X( !( ÐTHAT,€IT€NEEDS€TO€BE€CLARIFIED€A€LITTLE€BIT€IN€THE€RULESÏBECAUSE€IT'S€NOT€CLEAR€TO€ME€READING€THEM.€€FOR€EXAMPLE,Ð ¨+p$, ÐIF€I'M€LOOKING€INTO€A€BACT€ANALYSIS,€IF€THE€APPLICANTÏSUBMITTED€A€BACT€ANALYSIS€SUFFICIENT€ENOUGH,€I€MAY€HAVEÏADDITIONAL€INFORMATION€REQUEST€FROM€THEM,€HOWEVER,€IÏWILL€STILL€CALL€THE€APPLICATION€COMPLETE€AND€START€THEÏREVIEW€PROCESS.€€Ìà àà x àAND€IF€THEY€SUBMITTED€A€VISIBILITY€ANALYSISÏAND€ALL€THE€IMPACT€ANALYSES€THAT€WOULD€BE€NECESSARY€FORÏTHE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER,€I€WOULD€STILL€CALL€THEÏAPPLICATION€COMPLETE,€BUT€I€WOULD€GET€FEDERAL€LANDÏMANAGER'S€INPUT.€€I€WOULD€ASSURE€THAT€DURING€THEÏTECHNICAL€REVIEW€PROCESS€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER'S€CONCERNSÏARE€ADDRESSED.€€I€WILL€NOT€GO€TO€PUBLIC€COMMENT€UNTILÏTHEY€ARE€DONE€SO,€BUT€I€WILL€START€THE€REVIEW.€€Ìà àà x àIT€APPEARS€TO€ME€RIGHT€NOW€FROM€THEÏAPPLICATION€I€CANNOT€CALL€THE€APPLICATION€COMPLETE€UNTILÏTHE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€TELLS€ME€I€DON'T€NEED€ANY€MOREÏINFORMATION,€WHICH€WASN'T€THE€CASE€IN€THE€PAST.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OKAY.€€I€THINK€THAT'S€A€POINTÐ `#(" ÐTHAT€THE€AGENCY€NEEDS€TO€LOOK€AT€FROM€AN€OPERATIONALÏSTANDPOINT.Ìà àà x àDAVID?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH,€DAVE€HAWKINS.€€I€JUSTÐ *È"* ÐWANTED€TO€SPEAK€TO€THAT€BECAUSE€IT€--€ACTUALLY,€I€THINKÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHE€PROPOSED€TEXT€OF€THE€RULE€DOES€NOT€HAVE€THE€RESULTÏTHAT€ICLAL€INDICATED.€€IT€REQUIRES€THAT€THE€PERMIT€--ÏTHE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€HAVE€A€THIRTY-DAY€PERIOD€TOÏPROVIDE€COMMENTS€ON€--€FROM€THE€INITIAL€RECEIPT€OF€THEÏAPPLICATION€--€TO€PROVIDE€COMMENTS€WITH€RESPECT€TOÏCOMPLETENESS,€THAT€THE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€NEEDS€TOÏCONSIDER€THOSE€COMMENTS,€AND€THAT€THE€PERMITTINGÏAUTHORITY€NEEDS€TO€COMMUNICATE€WITH€OR€CONSULT€WITH€THEÏFLM€IF€THE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€DISAGREES€WITH€AN€FLMÏVIEW€ABOUT€COMPLETENESS.€Ìà àà x àSO€THAT€ISN'T€REQUIRING€A€DOUBLE€SIGN-OFF.€ÏIT'S€REQUIRING€A€COMMUNICATION€PROCESS€TO€OCCUR€AT€THISÏEARLY€STAGE€SO€THAT€IT€DOESN'T€HAVE€TO€OCCUR€LATER€ON.€ÏI€THINK€THAT€THE€TEXT€OF€THE€REGULATION€DOESN'T€DISPLACEÏTHE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY'S€DECISION€TO€CALL€SOMETHINGÏCOMPLETE.€€SO€I€THINK€THE,€YOU€KNOW,€THE€OUTCOME€IS€IFÏYOU€AND€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€HAVE€A€DISAGREEMENT,ÏAND€YOU€THINK€THAT€THE€PERMIT€SHOULD€BE€REGARDED€ASÏCOMPLETE,€THIS€RULE€ALLOWS€YOU€TO€DO€THAT,€BUT€ITÏREQUIRES€THAT€YOU€HAVE€GIVEN€THE€FLM€AN€OPPORTUNITY€TOÏSTATE€HIS€OR€HER€VIEWS€AND€THAT€YOU€HAVE€INFORMED€THEÏFLM€THAT,€WELL,€YOU€SAID€YOU€DON'T€THINK€IT'S€COMPLETEÏFOR€THIS€REASON,€BUT€I€THINK€IT€IS€COMPLETE,€AND€I€PLANÐ ¨+p$, ÐTO€MAKE€IT€COMPLETE.€€SO€IT€REALLY€DOESN'T€REQUIREÏCONCURRENCE€BY€THE€FLM€IN€THAT€CONCLUSION.€€IT€ONLYÏREQUIRES€THAT€THE€FLM€BE€CONSULTED€AND€INFORMED.€€THAT'SÏTHE€WAY€I€READ€IT.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€THINK,€OBVIOUSLY,€WE€HAVEÐ Ø   ÐSOMEONE€WHO€AT€LEAST€HAS€READ€IT€A€LITTLE€DIFFERENTLY,ÏSO€THE€AGENCY€SHOULD€PROBABLY€TRY€TO€CONSIDER€ADDRESSINGÏTHAT.€€Ìà àà x àKAREN?Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€WELL,€ICLAL,€IF€I€UNDERSTOODÐ  è ÐYOU€CORRECTLY,€YOU€SAID€THAT€YOU€WOULD€CALL€ANÏAPPLICATION€COMPLETE€EVEN€THOUGH€THE€FEDERAL€LANDÏMANAGER€MIGHT€NEED€SOME€ADDITIONAL€INFORMATION€IN€ORDERÏTO€DO€OUR€DETERMINATION€ON€ADVERSE€IMPACT€FOR€AQRV'S,ÏBUT€YOU€WOULD€STILL€HAVE€THE€WORK€DONE.€€YOU€WOULD€GETÏTHAT€INFORMATION€LATER€EVEN€THOUGH€YOU'RE€CALLING€THEÏAPPLICATION€COMPLETE.€€Ìà àà x àWELL,€UNFORTUNATELY,€IT'S€BEEN€OURÏEXPERIENCE€THAT€OTHER€STATES€DON'T€DO€THAT.€€IN€YOURÏCASE€IT'S€SORT€OF€A€SEMANTIC€GAME.€€WE'RE€STILL€GETTINGÏTHE€INFORMATION.€€EVEN€THOUGH€YOU€CALLED€THE€APPLICATIONÏCOMPLETE,€YOU'RE€ASKING€FOR€NEW€INFORMATION,€AND€IT€WILLÏBE€ADDED€INTO€THE€PERMIT€APPLICATION.€€SO€IT'S€THERE.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àBUT€THESE€PROCEDURES€SORT€OF€HELP€SETÏEVERYTHING€OUT€AND€MAKE€IT€CLEAR€FOR€EVERYONE€UP€FRONT,ÏTHAT€THEY€UNDERSTAND€THAT€THERE€WILL€NEED€TO€BE€SOME€--ÏTHERE€ARE€SOME€INFORMATIONAL€NEEDS€REGARDING€IMPACTS€TOÏAQRV'S€IF€THEY'RE€LOCATING€NEAR€A€CLASSI€AREA.€€AND€ITÏJUST€SETS€IT€OUT€AND€MAKE€--€AND€PUTS€EVERYTHING€UPÏFRONT€AND€CLEAR.Ìà àà x àAND€I€THINK€IT'S€BEEN€SAID€BEFORE:€€THESEÏPROCEDURES€ARE€REFLECTED€IN€A€NUMBER€OF€EPA€POLICY€MEMOSÏAND€DRAFT€MANUALS,€GUIDANCE,€AND€SO€FORTH€THAT€HAVE€BEENÏISSUED€OVER€THE€YEARS,€AND€IT'S€JUST€PUTTING€IT€IN€ONEÏPLACE.€€THERE€ARE,€AS€I€MENTIONED€EARLIER,€SOME€SPECIFICÏTIME€LIMITATIONS,€YOU€KNOW,€IN€PARTICULAR€PUT€ON€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€WHICH,€YOU€KNOW,€WILL€BE€DIFFICULTÏBUT€YET€FOR€THE€CLARITY€AND€CONSISTENCY,€YOU€KNOW,€IÏTHINK€IT'S€A€GOOD€ATTEMPT€TO€GET€--€TO€GET€US€INTO€AÏCONSISTENT€PROCESS€SO€YOU€DON'T€HAVE€PEOPLE€SHOPPING€--ÏFORUM€SHOPPING.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ARE€THERE€ANY€FURTHER€COMMENTSÐ %Ð$ ÐWITH€RESPECT€TO€THE€CLASSI€ISSUES€OF€THE€PACKAGE?€€ÏWITH€CAN€GIVE€THE€--€DAVID.Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH,€THIS€IS€A€COMMENTÐ *È"* ÐINSPIRED€BY€A€NUMBER€OF€THE€STATEMENTS€AT€YESTERDAY'SÐ ¨+p$, ÐPUBLIC€HEARING.€€I€WAS€--€I€WAS€SOMEWHAT€SURPRISED€BYÏTHE€VEHEMENCE€OF€THE€OPPOSITION€TO€THE€CLASSI€PROPOSALSÏIN€THIS€RULEMAKING€BY€MOST€OF€THE€INDUSTRY€PEOPLE€WHOÏSPOKE,€AND€AT€LEAST€IT€APPEARS€TO€ME€TO€BE€BASED€ON€AÏMISREADING€OF€WHAT'S€IN€THE€PROPOSAL.€€THERE€WERE€AÏNUMBER€OF€CHARACTERIZATIONS€ABOUT€HOW€THIS€SOMEHOW€GIVESÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGERS€FINAL€SAY€OVER€THE€ISSUANCE€OFÏPERMITS€AND€SIMILAR€TYPES€OF€COMMENTS.Ìà àà x àAND€I€REALLY€DON'T€THINK€THAT€IS€THE€CASE,ÏAND€IF€THERE'S€A€MISUNDERSTANDING€--€EITHER€ON€MY€PARTÏOR€ON€THE€PART€OF€THE€OPPONENTS€--€I€THINK€IT€WOULD€BEÏUSEFUL€TO€HAVE€SOME€DISCUSSION€TO€TRY€TO€CLARIFY€THATÏUNDERSTANDING€BECAUSE€THIS€IS€AN€IMPORTANT€PART€OF€THEÏPROPOSAL.€€Ìà àà x àWHEN€WE€STARTED€THIS€COMMITTEE,ÏSUBCOMMITTEE,€FOUR€YEARS,€ONE€OF€THE€FIRST€THINGS€WEÏDISCUSSED€WAS€THE€FACT€THAT€WE€HAD€AN€INADEQUATE€SYSTEMÏFOR€PROTECTING€CLASSI€RESOURCES,€AND€I€THINK€THERE€WASÏGENERAL€ACKNOWLEDGEMENT€THAT€THERE€WAS€ADVERSE€IMPACTÏOCCURRING.€€AND€THEN€THERE€WAS€A€LOT€OF€DISCUSSION€BACKÏAND€FORTH€ABOUT€WHETHER€IT€WAS€EXISTING€SOURCES€OR€NEWÏSOURCES,€AND€THERE€--€OBVIOUSLY,€THIS€RULEMAKING€DOESÏNOT€HAVE€ANY€--€IT€DOESN'T€ADVANCE€THE€AGENDA€WHATSOEVERÐ ¨+p$, ÐON€DEALING€WITH€WHAT€EVERYBODY€HAS€STATED€IS€A€PROBLEM;ÏAND€THAT€IS€THE€IMPACT€OF€EXISTING€SOURCES.€€SO€IT€DOESÏTRY€TO€AMELIORATE€THE€SITUATION€WITH€RESPECT€TO€NEWÏSOURCES€AND€YET€RECOMMENDATIONS€WERE€MADE€YESTERDAY€THATÏEVEN€THAT€SHOULD€BE€DROPPED€FROM€THIS€REFORM€EXERCISE,ÏWHICH€WOULD€BE€VERY€OBJECTIONABLE€FROM€OUR€STANDPOINT.Ìà àà x àAND€IF€THAT'S€BASED€ON€SOME€SORT€OFÏMISUNDERSTANDING€OF€WHAT€THESE€PROVISIONS€ACTUALLYÏREQUIRE,€I€THINK€IT'S€IMPORTANT€TO€CLARIFY€THAT.€€IFÏIT'S€BASED€ON€A€CORRECT€UNDERSTANDING€AND€SIMPLY€AÏDISAGREEMENT€ABOUT€WHAT€THE€AGENCY€IS€TRYING€TO€DO,€EVENÏTHOUGH€IT'S€CORRECTLY€UNDERSTOOD,€THAT'S€IMPORTANT€TOÏKNOW€THAT€TOO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€AND€I€THINK€THAT'S€AN€IMPORTANTÐ Àˆ ÐPOINT€BECAUSE,€OBVIOUSLY,€ONE€OF€THE€ISSUES€THAT€I€HEARDÏYESTERDAY€DURING€THE€HEARING€WAS€THE€QUESTION€THAT€THEÏCOMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION€COULD,€IN€EFFECT,€BE€HELD€UPÏFOREVER.€€AND€I€THINK€I€HEARD€YOU€SAY,€DAVID,€THAT€UNDERÏYOUR€READING€THAT€HAS€TO€BE€AT€LEAST€A€CONSULTATION,€BUTÏIF€THE€STATE€PERMITTING€AUTHORITY€DEEMS€THE€INFORMATION,ÏALL€THE€INFORMATION€NECESSARY,€THAT€THAT€IS€THEIRÏDECISION.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€YEAH,€IT'S€A€SHORT€PROVISION.€Ð ¨+p$, ÐIT€SAYS,€"CONSULT€WITH€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€ABOUTÏANY€INCONSISTENCY€BETWEEN€THE€DETERMINATION€BY€THEÏPERMITTING€AUTHORITY€AND€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER'SÏRECOMMENDATION."€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€RIGHT.€€Ð Ø   Ðà àà x àOKAY.€€WELL,€IF€THERE€ARE€SOME€ISSUES€ABOUTÏTHAT€THAT€MEMBERS€HERE€FROM€INDUSTRY€WOULD€LIKE€TOÏADDRESS,€I€THINK€IT€WOULD€BE€HELPFUL.Ìà àà x àBILL?Ìà àà x àò òMR.PEDERSEN:ó ó€€YES.€€I€HAVE€READ€THESEÐ  è ÐCLASSI€AREA€PROVISIONS,€AND€I€DO€NOT€THINK€IÏMISUNDERSTOOD€THEM.€€I€THINK€MY€PROFESSIONAL€COMPLIMENTSÏTO€WHOEVER€IT€WAS€WHO€WROTE€THEM€BECAUSE€THEY€HAVE€A€--ÏTHEY€HAVE€A€VERY€CONSISTENT€THEME.€€IF€THERE€--€THERE€ISÏSOMETHING€OF€AN€AIR€OF€TWO€DIFFERENT€MESSAGES€IN€THEÏDESCRIPTIONS€OF€WHAT€THIS€THING€NOMINALLY€SAYS€AND€HOWÏIT€REALLY€WORK.€€Ìà àà x àI€WOULD€DESCRIBE€IT€AS€HAVING€BEENÏCONSTRUCTED€WITH€A€LOT€OF€CARE€TO€MAXIMIZE€THE€POWER€OFÏTHE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€TO€ASSERT€WHATEVER€THEY€WANTÏAND€GET€WHATEVER€RESULT€THEY€WANT€AND€TO€DO€SO€BASICALLYÏBY€USING€THE€INERTIA€OF€THE€SYSTEM€AND€BY€EMPOWERING€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€TO€RAISE€UNDOCUMENTED€CONCERNS.€€SOÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHAT€AT€EVERY€POINT€IN€THE€PERMIT€PROCESSING€SYSTEM,€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€CAN€RAISE€A€CONCERN€WITHOUT€MUCH€OFÏAN€OBLIGATION€TO€SUPPORT€IT,€AND€THEN€THE€PERMITTINGÏPROCESS€HAS€TO€STOP,€AND€IT€HAS€TO€CONSIDER€WHETHER€THATÏCONCERN€IS€JUSTIFIED€OR€NOT.Ìà àà x àAND€QUITE€PREDICTABLY,€THE€RESULT€WILL€BEÏTHAT€EITHER€PEOPLE€WITH€GIVE€UP€ON€THESE€PROJECTS,€ORÏTHEY€WILL€BUY€OFF€THE€FLM€IN€ONE€WAY€OR€ANOTHER€EVENÏWHEN€THERE€IS€NO€TECHNICAL€JUSTIFICATION€FOR€BELIEVINGÏTHAT€THIS€PARTICULAR€SOURCE€HAS€ANY€ADVERSE€IMPACT.€€Ìà àà x àI€MEAN,€GO€THROUGH€THE€COUNT.€€THE€FEDERALÏLAND€MANAGER€HAS,€AT€A€MINIMUM,€A€VERY€STRONG€VOICE€INÏTHE€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATIONS.€€SO€IT€WILL€BEÏDIFFICULT€TO€MAKE€A€COMPLETENESS€DETERMINATION€OVER€THEÏFLM'S€OBJECTION.€€THE€PREAMBLE€SAYS€SOMETHING€LIKE€WHENÏTHE€FLM€ASKS€FOR€MORE€DATA,€ONLY€IF€THERE€IS€NOÏPOTENTIAL€LINKAGE€BETWEEN€THE€EMISSIONS€AND€THE€AIRÏQUALITY€VALUE€THAT'S€ASSERTED€TO€BE€IN€DANGER€CAN€--ÏSHOULD€THAT€REQUEST€BE€DENIED.Ìà àà x àTHEN€YOU€--€AND€WE'VE€HEARD€ABOUT€THEÏRESTRICTIVE€DEADLINES€THAT€ARE€IN€THE€PROPOSAL,€BUT€THEÏPROPOSAL€IS€EQUALLY€CLEAR€THAT€THE€FLM€CAN€COME€LATERÏAND€RAISE€CONCERNS€THAT€WERE€NOT€RAISED€DURING€THEÐ ¨+p$, ÐWINDOW€PERIOD€WITHOUT€BEING€PREJUDICED€IN€ANY€WAY€BYÏHAVING€FAILED€TO€RAISE€THEM.€€Ìà àà x àAND€FINALLY€WHEN€IT€COMES€TIME€TO€THEÏINSTALLATION€--€THE€ACTUAL€QUESTION€OF€CONTROLS,€MANYÏSTEPS€LATER,€THE€PACKAGE€SAYS€THAT€THE€STATE€SHALL€DEFERÏTO€THE€FLM'S€EXPERTISE€ON€THESE€ISSUES,€INCLUDING,€IÏSUPPOSE,€AIR€QUALITY€MODELING€ISSUES€ON€WHICH€THEY€AREÏNOT€EXPERT€OR€NO€MORE€EXPERT.€€AND€THEN€IT€HAS€TO€TOUCHÏA€NUMBER€OF€BASES€IF€IT€DISAGREES.€€AND,€AGAIN,€IT'SÏNOMINALLY€TRUE€THAT€IF€YOU€TOUCH€ALL€THE€BASES€YOU€CANÏDISAGREE.Ìà àà x àBUT€AT€EVERY€STAGE€THERE€IS€A€WEIGHT€ON€THEÏSCALE€IN€FAVOR€OF€THE€FLM€AND€AGAINST€ANYONE€WHO€WANTSÏTO€DISAGREE€WITH€THE€FLM.€Ìà àà x àNOW€YOU€COUPLE€THAT€WITH€THE€OTHER€THEME€OFÏTHE€PACKAGE,€WHICH€IS€ABSOLUTELY€NO€REAL€BURDEN€OFÏJUSTIFICATION€ON€THE€FLM.€€THE€PACKAGE€DOES€NOT€MENTIONÏANY€REAL€PHYSICAL€TECHNICAL€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUES.€ÏIT€MENTIONS€VISIBILITY€A€COUPLE€OF€TIMES€BECAUSE€THAT€ISÏMENTIONED€IN€THE€òòCLEAN€AIR€ACTóó,€AND€SO€THE€FLM€HASÐ °&x& ÐCOMPLETE€FREEDOM€TO€SAY€WE€THOUGHT€OF€THIS,€WE€THOUGHTÏOF€THAT,€WE€NOW€DECIDED€THAT€WE€SHOULD€--€WE€SHOULD€--ÏWE€SHOULD€HAVE€A€TIGHTER€FOCUS€ON€THIS€PROBLEM.€€Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àAND€I€THINK€THAT€ALL€OF€THIS€IS€PARTICULARLYÏTROUBLESOME€PRECISELY€BECAUSE€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUESÏARE€A€REAL€ISSUE.€€THIS€IS€NOT€A€CONCERN€THAT'S€GOING€TOÏGO€AWAY.€€BUT€NO€ONE€HAS€DENIED€THAT€NEW€SOURCES€ARE€AÏTINY€PART€OF€THE€AIR€QUALITY€VALUES€PROBLEM.€€Ìà àà x àAS€LONG€AS€WE€HAVE€A€SYSTEM€THAT€FOCUSES€ONÏEXISTING€--€ON€NEW€SOURCES€LIKE€THIS€AND€AS€LONG€AS€WEÏHAVE€A€REAL€CONCERN€AND€AS€LONG€AS€WE€HAVE€SUCHÏARBITRARY€POWER€ON€THE€FLM,€WE€CAN€PREDICT€--€ANDÏCERTAINLY€WE€CAN€FEAR€--€THAT€PERMIT€APPLICANTS€WILL€GETÏHIT€AGAIN€AND€AGAIN€AND€AGAIN€AND€AGAIN€IF€THIS€RULE€ISÏPROMULGATED€SIMPLY€BECAUSE€THEY€ARE€THE€ONLY€TARGET€OUTÏTHERE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€JOHN?Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àò òMR.BUNYAK:ó ó€€I'D€LIKE€TO€MAKE€ONE€COMMENT€ONÐ h0 ÐTHE€NOTIFICATION€PROVISIONS€IN€THE€PROPOSAL.€€IT'S€TRUEÏTHAT€THE€APPLICANT€DOESN'T€HAVE€TO€INCLUDE€A€CLASSIÏINCREMENT€ANALYSIS€OR€OTHER€IMPACTS€ANALYSIS€UNLESS€THEÏFEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€LINKS€THE€PROPOSED€EMISSIONS€TOÏSOME€PRELIMINARY€IMPACT€DETERMINATION.€€Ìà àà x àI€GUESS€I€JUST€WANTED€TO€MAKE€THE€POINT€THATÏIF€TIMING€IS€CRUCIAL€AND€IF€THE€FEDERAL€LAND€MANAGER€HASÏALREADY€GONE€ON€RECORD€AS€MAKING€A€PRELIMINARY€ADVERSEÐ ¨+p$, ÐIMPACT€DETERMINATION€WITH€RESPECT€TO€SOME€OTHERÏAPPLICATION,€I€THINK€IT€WOULD€BEHOOVE€THE€APPLICANT€TOÏSTICK€THAT€STUFF€IN€THERE€RATHER€THAN€WAITING€FOR€US€TOÏCERTIFY€THE€NEED€FOR€THAT.€Ìà àà x àI€GUESS€--€AND€THEN€ONE€--€A€COUPLE€OFÏEDITORIAL€COMMENTS€TO€ADDRESS€BILL'S€CONCERN€THERE,€ANDÏI€THINK€FROM€OUR€STANDPOINT€WE€LOOK€AT€ROLE€OFÏAFFIRMATIVE€RESPONSIBILITY.€€WE€TAKE€THAT€ROLE€VERYÏSERIOUSLY,€AND€I'M€NOT€GOING€TO€APOLOGIZE€FOR€THE€NEEDÏTO€HAVE€ADEQUATE€INFORMATION€TO€DO€OUR€JOB.Ìà àà x àIT'S€OUR€ROLE€TO€PROTECT€THE€CLASSIÏAREAS--THE€GRAND€CANYON,€THE€GREAT€SMOKEY€MOUNTAINS,ÏSHENANDOAH€NATIONAL€PARK,€AND€SO€FORTH€--€FOR€THEÏBENEFIT€€OF€EVERYBODY.€€IT'S€NOT€JOHN€BUNYAK'S€CLASSIÏAREAS;€IT'S€ALL€OF€OUR€CLASSI€AREAS.€€Ìà àà x àTHANKS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID?Ð ¸!€  Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€WELL,€I€JUST€WANT€TO€MENTION€AÐ `#(" ÐCOUPLE€OF€PROVISIONS€THAT€ARE€IN€THE€ACTUAL€RULE€INÏRESPONSE€TO€BILL€PEDERSEN'S€CONCLUSIONS.€€FIRST,€THEREÏIS€A€DEFINITION€OF€"AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUE"€THATÏSPECIFICALLY€LISTS€"VISIBILITY€OR€A€SCENIC,€CULTURAL,ÏPHYSICAL,€BIOLOGICAL,€ECOLOGICAL,€OR€RECREATIONALÐ ¨+p$, ÐRESOURCE€THAT€MAY€BE€AFFECTED€BY€A€CHANGE€IN€AIRÏQUALITY."€€AND€SO€THERE€IS€A€SPECIFIC€DEFINITION.€ÏPERHAPS€IT€ISN'T€AS€SPECIFIC€AS€BILL€WOULD€LIKE,€BUT€IÏDIDN'T€WANT€TO€LEAVE€THE€IMPRESSION€THAT€THERE€WAS€NOÏLISTING€OF€THE€TYPES€OF€RESOURCES€THAT€WERE€CONSIDEREDÏIN€THE€RULE.Ìà àà x àSECOND,€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THE€FLM'S€ABILITY€TOÏSTOP€THE€PROCESS€WITH€ESSENTIALLY€NO€INFORMATION,€I'MÏSURE€THERE€ARE€A€LOT€MORE€REFERENCES€BUT€JUST€A€COUPLEÏTHAT€ARE€WORTH€POINTING€OUT:€€ONE€IS€THAT€THE€FLM€ISÏREQUIRED,€IF€REQUESTED,€TO€PROVIDE€ALL€AVAILABLEÏINFORMATION€ABOUT€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€AND€METHODSÏTO€ANALYZE€POTENTIAL€IMPACTS.€€IT€IS€ALSO€REQUIRED€TOÏPROVIDE€ITS€COMMENTS€WITH€RESPECT€TO€COMPLETENESS€IF€ITÏWANTS€TO€CREATE€AN€OBLIGATION€ON€THE€PART€OF€THEÏPERMITTING€AUTHORITY€TO€CONSIDER€THEM€OR€TO€CONSULT.Ìà àà x àAND€IT€IS€--€IF€IT€WANTS€TO€ASSERT€THEÏPOSSIBILITY€OF€AN€ADVERSE€IMPACT,€IT€IS€REQUIRED€TOÏSUBMIT€"A€DEMONSTRATION€THAT€A€PROPOSED€MAJOR€SOURCE€ORÏA€MAJOR€MODIFICATION€WILL€HAVE€AN€ADVERSE€IMPACT€ON€AIRÏQUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€AFTER€HAVING€IDENTIFIED€WHATÏTHOSE€SPECIFIC€VALUES€ARE€IN€AN€INITIAL€NOTIFICATION."Ìà àà x àSO€I€THINK€THAT€TO€CHARACTERIZE€THIS€ASÐ ¨+p$, ÐALLOWING€SORT€OF€THE€NEAREST€ASSERTION€THAT,€GEE,€THEREÏMAY€BE€SOME€PROBLEM€DOESN'T€CORRECTLY€CHARACTERIZE€THEÏPROPOSED€RULE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ANY€OTHER€COMMENTS€ON€THEÐ 0 ø ÐCLASSI€PORTION€OF€THE€PACKAGE?€Ìà àà x àLYDIA?Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€I€WOULD€ASK€BILL€AND€OTHERÐ (ð  ÐINDUSTRY€FOLKS€WHO€REALLY€HAVE€OBJECTIONS€TO€THIS€THATÏIT€WOULD€BE€HELPFUL€TO€US,€RATHER€THAN€GETTING€SWEEPINGÏDENUNCIATIONS€OF€THE€PACKAGE,€EVEN€THOUGH€THAT€MAY€BEÏWHAT€YOU€WOULD€FEEL,€IF€WE€COULD€GET€SOME€MORE€SPECIFICÏSUGGESTIONS€FOR€HOW€WE€MIGHT€BALANCE€THESE€CONCERNS€THATÏYOU€HAVE€WITH€THOSE€OF€THE€FLM'S.€€I€MEAN,€I€THINK€WEÏCLEARLY€ARE€TRYING€TO€ADDRESS€THE€NEEDS€OF€THE€FLM'SÏWITHOUT€TRYING€TO€OVERLY€BURDEN€YOU,€AND€IT€WOULD€BEÏHELPFUL€TO€KNOW€FROM€YOU€--€NOT€NECESSARILY€TODAY,ÏALTHOUGH€IF€YOU€WANT€TO€IT'S€FINE€--€WHAT€ELEMENTS€OFÏOUR€EFFORTS€TO€GIVE€THE€FLM'S€MORE€UP-FRONT€NOTIFICATIONÏAND€INVOLVEMENT€MAKE€SOME€SENSE€AND€ARE€WORKABLE€ASÏOPPOSED€TO€THOSE€WHICH€ARE€PROBLEMATIC.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.PEDERSEN:ó ó€€I€THINK€--€I€THINK€THAT€THEÐ X( !( ÐDIRECTION€OF€SUCH€A€FIX€IS€CLEAR;€AND€THAT€IS,ÏPARTICULARLY€IN€A€SITUATION€WHERE€THE€NEW€SOURCES€ARE€AÐ ¨+p$, ÐSMALL€PART€OF€THE€PROBLEM€AND€WHERE€THERE€IS€THIS€GREATÏCONCERN€ABOUT€ARBITRARY€POWER,€WHAT€WE€WOULD€LIKE€TO€SEEÏIS€FIXES€THAT€PUT€A€GREATER€BURDEN€OF€JUSTIFICATION€--ÏAND€I€MEAN€AN€EXPLICIT€BURDEN€OF€JUSTIFICATION€--€ON€THEÏFLM€TO€ASSERT€WHAT€THE€VALUE€IS,€WHAT€--€HOW€IT€CAN€BEÏQUANTIFIED€IN€NUMBERS€THAT€RELATE€TO€THE€POLLUTION,€ANDÏWHETHER€THE€IMPACT€OF€THIS€NEW€SOURCE€WILL€BEÏSIGNIFICANT€IN€A€CAUSATION€SENSE€AS€HENRY€SAID.Ìà àà x àA€COUPLE€OF€POINTS€--€THEY€AREN'T€NEW€--€THEÏMODELS€USED€FOR€MAKING€THESE€PROJECTIONS€SHOULD€BEÏGUIDANCE€MODELS.€€THE€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€SHOULDÏBE€DEFINED€IN€ADVANCE€IN€SOME€MANNER€AND€SHOULD€HAVEÏSOME€TYPE€OF€QUANTITATIVE€SUPPORT,€AND€THERE€SHOULD€BEÏòòDE€MINIMUSóó€LEVELS€FOR€AIR€QUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€BELOWÐ Àˆ ÐWHICH€YOU€DON'T€HAVE€TO€WORRY€ABOUT€IT.Ìà àà x àAT€PRESENT€THE€PACKAGE€SAYS,€WELL,€AIRÏQUALITY€RELATED€VALUES€ARE€TOO€INCHOATE.€€WE€COULDN'T€--ÏWE€COULDN'T€PRESUME€TO€SET€--€WE,€EPA,€COULDN'T€PRESUMEÏTO€SET€òòDE€MINIMUSóó€LEVELS,€AND€THE€FLM€ISN'T€OBLIGED€TOÐ %Ð$ ÐSET€THEM.€€I€DON'T€BUY€THE€NOTION€THAT€VISIBILITY€IS€AÏVALUE;€IT'S€NOT€A€NUMBER.€€I€MEAN€GOOD€HEALTH€IS€AÏVALUE,€TOO,€BUT€WHEN€YOU€GO€TO€THE€DOCTOR,€HE€SAYS€THISÏNUMBER.€€YOU€LOSE€TWENTY€POUNDS.€€YOU€GET€YOURÐ ¨+p$, ÐCHOLESTEROL€DOWN.€€THAT'S€WHAT€REGULATION€IS€ABOUT.€€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID?РਠÐà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€I€THINK€KAREN€WAS€UP.Ð ˆ P Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€OH,€I'M€SORRY,€KAREN.€€I€DIDN'TÐ 0 ø ÐSEE€YOUR€CARD.Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€I'D€JUST€LIKE€TO€ASK€BILL€AÐ €H  ÐQUESTION.€€YOU€SAY€YOU€WANT€TO€HAVE€òòDE€MINIMUSóó€THRESHOLDÐ (ð  ÐLEVELS€FOR€AQRV'S.€€WELL,€HOW€DO€YOU€TELL€--€ALL€THOSEÏLITTLE€òòDE€MINIMUSóó€LEVELS€ADD€UP€TO€A€BIG,€CUMULATIVEÐ x@  ÐIMPACT€OVER€TIME.€€AND€AS€JOHN€BUNYAK€AND€OTHERS€HAVEÏPOINTED€OUT,€YOU€KNOW,€THESE€ARE€NOT€THE€FLM'S€CLASSIÏAREAS.€€THESE€ARE€SET€ASIDE€FOR€FUTURE€GENERATIONS,ÏAREAS€TO€BE€TREASURED€BY€THE€WORLD€OVER,€AND€HOW€DO€YOUÏADDRESS€THAT€CUMULATIVE€ISSUE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.PEDERSEN:ó ó€€I€THINK€WE€SHOULD€ADDRESS€ITÐ h0 ÐTHROUGH€A€PROGRAM€THAT€ADDRESSES€ALL€SOURCES:€€LARGE,ÏSMALL,€EXISTING,€OR€NO.€€THEN€WE€WOULD€--€THEN€WE€WOULDÏHAVE€SOME€KIND€OF€AN€AUTOMATIC€CHECK€ON€WHETHER€THEÏREGULATION€WAS€REASONABLE€OR€WHETHER€WE€WERE€JUSTÏBEATING€UP€ON€ONE€CLASS€OF€SOURCES€BECAUSE€THEY€WEREÏALREADY€IN€THE€SYSTEM.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€WELL,€COULD€YOU€ELABORATE€ONÐ *È"* ÐTHAT?€€WHAT€SORT€OF€PROGRAM€WOULD€THAT€BE?€€AND€HOWÐ ¨+p$, ÐCOULD€YOU€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.PEDERSEN:ó ó€€I€CAN'T€GO€ANY€FURTHER€RIGHTРਠÐNOW.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€DAVID?Ð 0 ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€WELL,€BILL€HAS€JUST€SPOKEN€TOÐ Ø   ÐTHE€CONCERN€THAT€I€WANTED€TO€ADDRESS€AS€WELL.€€THEÏPROPOSAL€THAT€THERE€BE€A€SHIFTING€OF€THE€BURDEN€OF€PROOFÏTO€A€GREATER€DEGREE€THAN€THIS€RULE€ESTABLISH,€YOU€KNOW,ÏMIGHT€BE€--€MIGHT€BE€A€USEFUL€PROPOSAL€FOR€A€FULLYÏINTEGRATED€SYSTEM€AT€SOME€POINT€IN€THE€FUTURE€WHEN€WE'VEÏGOT€A€FUNCTIONING€PROGRAM€THAT€DEALS€WITH€THE€ADVERSEÏIMPACTS€THAT€ARE€BEING€CREATED€BY€THE€NEW€SOURCES.€Ìà àà x àBUT€TO€SUGGEST€THAT€WE€SHOULD€ESTABLISH€AÏVERY€HIGH€BURDEN€OF€PROOF€AND,€IN€EFFECT,€REQUIRE€AÏCATALOG€OF€WHAT€IS€CURRENTLY€UNCATALOGABLE€(SIC)€BUT,ÏNONETHELESS,€EVENTUALLY€DAMAGED€IS,€IN€SOME€CASESÏIRREVERSIBLY€BY€INCREASED€AIR€POLLUTION€--€TO€REQUIREÏTHOSE€THINGS€NOW€AND€SAY€LATER€ON€WE€WILL€ADDRESS€WHATÏHAS€BEEN€IDENTIFIED€AS€ONE€OF€THE€MAJOR€PROBLEMS€OFÏTHOSE€ADVERSE€IMPACTS,€I€THINK,€IS€A€PROBLEM€INÏSEQUENCING.€€IT'S,€YOU€KNOW,€A€LITTLE€LIKE€TELLING€THEÏGUY€IN€THE€PLANE,€JUMP,€WE'LL€SEND€YOU€THE€PARACHUTEÏLATER.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT,€WITH€THAT€EXAMPLE€AREÐ 8 ÐTHERE€ANY€FURTHER€DISCUSSIONS€ON€THE€CLASSI€ISSUES?Ìà àà x àWE€CAN€--€I€WILL€GIVE€YOU€THE€OPTION€I€WASÏGOING€TO€GIVE€YOU€A€FEW€MINUTES€AGO.€€IT'S€EVEN€MOREÏRELEVANT€NOW.€€WE€CAN€EITHER€TAKE€A€BREAK,€WHICH€WILLÏPUT€US€VERY,€VERY€CLOSE€TO€4:00€OR€4:30,€OR€WE€CAN€MOVEÏIMMEDIATELY€TO€MISCELLANEOUS€REFORMS€IN€THE€òòCLEAN€AIRÐ (ð  ÐACTóó€IMPLEMENTATION€REVISIONS€AND€DECIDE€WHETHER€OR€NOTРИ  ÐTHERE€ARE€ANY€COMMENTS€ON€THOSE€BY€ANYBODY€HERE.€€THEREÏWERE€NOT€EXTENSIVE€COMMENTS€YESTERDAY€AT€THE€HEARING,€SOÏTHERE'S€NOTHING€TO€REPORT€FROM€THAT€STANDPOINT€AT€THEÏHEARING.€€THERE€MAY€BE€IN€THE€WRITTEN€COMMENTS.Ìà àà x àIF€THERE€ARE€ANY€SPECIFIC€COMMENTS€FROM€THEÏCOMMITTEE€MEMBERS,€I€THINK€THIS€WOULD€BE€THE€APPROPRIATEÏTIME.€€IF€THERE€ARE€TONS€OF€THEM,€WE'LL€TAKE€A€SHORTÏBREAK.€€IF€THERE€ARE€NOT,€WE€MAY€BE€ABLE€TO€WRAP€UPÏFASTER.Ìà àà x àDAVID?Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€THE€ONE€COMMENT€THAT€I€WANTEDÐ %Ð$ ÐTO€FLAG€WAS€MY€COMMENT€AT€YESTERDAY'S€HEARING€ABOUT€THEÏSHUTDOWN€CREDIT€ISSUE.€€I€DON'T€KNOW€IF€THAT'S€SUPPOSEDÏTO€BE€COVERED€IN€THE€MISCELLANEOUS.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ACTUALLY,€YOU'RE€RIGHT.€€IT€IS.€Ð ¨+p$, ÐWHY€DON'T€YOU€GO€AHEAD€AND€ADDRESS€THAT€ISSUE€BECAUSE€IÏTHINK€IT'S€APPROPRIATE.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€SURE,€AND€I'LL€DO€IT€QUICKLYÐ ˆ P ÐBECAUSE€I€WOULD€ALSO€ENDORSE€WRAPPING€UP.Ìà àà x àTHE€PROPOSAL€HAS€ALTERNATIVES€FOR€EXPANDINGÏTHE€USE€OF€SHUTDOWN€CREDITS€IN€THE€--€IN€NONATTAINMENTÏAREAS€FOR€OFFSET€--€FOR€PURPOSES€OF€SATISFYING€OFFSETS.€ÏTHIS€HAS€LONG€BEEN€A€CONCERN€OF€THE€ENVIRONMENTALÏCOMMUNITY.€€THE€AGENCY'S€RATIONALE€FOR€SUPPORTING€ANÏEXPANSION€OF€THE€USE€OF€THESE€OFFSET€CREDITS€ISÏESSENTIALLY€PREMISED€ON€THE€FACT€THAT€THE€òò1990Ð È ÐAMENDMENTSóó,€AS€WRITTEN,€HAVE€A€NUMBER€OF€SPECIFICÐ p8 ÐPROVISIONS€WHICH,€IF€IMPLEMENTED,€WOULD€PROVIDE€GREATERÏSECURITY€THAT€THE€USE€OF€OFFSET€--€OF€SHUTDOWN€CREDITSÏWOULDN'T'€DETERIORATE€AIR€QUALITY€IN€PLACES€THAT€NEED€TOÏIMPROVE€IT.Ìà àà x àTHE€ONLY€PROBLEM€WITH€THAT€ANALYSIS€IS€THATÏIT€IGNORES€THE€FACTS€ON€THE€GROUND.€€IT€IGNORES€THEÏFACTS€THAT€THE€VERY€PROVISIONS€THAT€ARE€POINTED€TO€ASÏENSURING€A€GREATER€SENSE€OF€CONFIDENCE€THAT€THE€STATESÏWILL€ACTUALLY€GET€THE€WORK€DONE€ON€TIME,€THAT€THOSE€VERYÏPROVISIONS€HAVEN'T€BEEN€IMPLEMENTED€ON€TIME.€€AND€IÏTHINK€THAT€IT€WOULD€BE€A€REALLY€PRETTY€STRANGE€DEFENSEÐ ¨+p$, ÐIF,€PERHAPS,€A€YEAR€FROM€NOW€OR€WHENEVER€THIS€RULE€GOESÏFINAL€IF€THE€AGENCY€IS€IN€THE€POSITION€OF€HAVING€THATÏKIND€OF€A€RATIONALE€AT€A€POINT€WHEN€THOSE€THINGS€STILLÏHAVEN'T€BEEN€IMPLEMENTED€AND€YET€POINTING€TO€IT€AS€SORTÏOF€SAFETY€NET.Ìà àà x àSO€I€THINK€THE€AGENCY€NEEDS€TO€EVALUATE€THISÏGIVEN€THE€FACTS€THAT€EXIST,€NOT€GIVEN€THE€STRUCTURE€OF€AÏLAW€THAT€HASN'T€BEEN€IMPLEMENTED€ON€SCHEDULE.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€DAVID,€THERE€ARE€TWO€OPTIONSÐ x@  ÐWITHIN€THE€PACKAGE€FOR€TREATING€PRIOR€SHUTDOWNS.€€IÏASSUME€YOUR€CONCERNS€ARE€EQUAL€OF€TERMS€OF€BOTH€OF€THEM,ÏOR€DO€YOU€FIND€ONE€TO€BE€LESS€EGREGIOUS€THAN€THE€OTHER?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€WELL,€AS€MY€COLLEAGUE€TO€MYÐ à ÐLEFT€CAN€VOUCH,€FOR€A€COUPLE€OF€YEARS€NOW€WE€HAVE€BEENÏHEARING€FROM€THE€STATE€AGENCIES€THAT€THEY€ARE€FACING€THEÏIMPOSSIBLE€TASK€OF€IDENTIFYING€THE€EMISSION€REDUCTIONSÏNEEDED€NOT€ONLY€TO€DEMONSTRATE€ATTAINMENT,€BUT€TO€EVENÏDEMONSTRATE€COMPLIANCE€WITH€THE€MINIMUM€EMISSIONÏREDUCTION€MEASURES€NEEDED€TO€SATISFY€THE€15€PERCENT€ORÏTHE€3€PERCENT€PER€YEAR.€€THAT€HAS€BEEN€A€CONSTANTÏREFRAIN,€WHICH€HAS€BEEN€BASICALLY€ENDORSED€AND€ACCEPTEDÏBY€THE€AGENCY€IN€GIVING€MORE€TIME€TO€DO€THESE€JOBS.Ìà àà x àTO€SAY€THAT€WE€CAN,€THEREFORE,€ALLOWÐ ¨+p$, ÐREDUCTIONS€IN€EMISSIONS€WHICH€HAVE€BEEN€IDENTIFIED€TOÏINSTEAD€OF€CONTRIBUTING€TO€MEETING€EITHER€ONE€OF€THOSEÏOBJECTIVES,€EITHER€A€SET€OF€REQUIREMENTS€TO€DEMONSTRATEÏATTAINMENT€OR€CONTRIBUTING€TOWARD€THE€MINIMUM€EMISSIONÏREDUCTIONS,€TO€SAY€WE€CAN€TAKE€THOSE€REDUCTIONS€WHICHÏHAVE€OCCURRED€AND€INSTEAD€DEDICATE€THEM€TO€ALLOWÏCONSTRUCTION€OF€A€NEW€FACILITY€THAT€IS€LESSÏWELL-CONTROLLED€THAN€IT€OTHERWISE€WOULD€HAVE€TO€BEÏBECAUSE€YOU€COULD€TAKE€THOSE€POUNDS€OR€TONS€AND€USE€THEMÏTO€OFFSET€THE€EMISSIONS€WHICH€ARE€GREATER€THAN€THEYÏOTHERWISE€WOULD€BE,€I€THINK,€SIMPLY€REFLECTS€ANÏINCREDIBLE€DISCONNECT€BETWEEN€THESE€TWO€COMPONENTS€OFÏTHE€PROGRAM.€Ìà àà x àIT€DOESN'T€REFLECT€THE€FACT€THAT€THESEÏOFFSET€TRANSACTIONS€CAN€HELP€CONTRIBUTE€TOWARD€PROGRESSÏON€A€GOAL€THAT€WE€WOEFULLY€BEHIND€ON.€€SO,€YES,€I€HAVEÏPROBLEMS€WITH€ANY€EXPANSION€OF€THE€SHUTDOWN€CREDITÏPOLICY.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BERNIE?Ð %Ð$ Ðà àà x àI'M€SORRY,€CHUCK.€€DO€YOU€WANT€TO€STAY€ONÏTHAT€ISSUE?Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€I€JUST€WANT€TO€CLARIFY.€€THEÐ *È"* ÐSTATES€CAN€MAINTAIN€THE€CURRENT€RESTRICTIONS,€RIGHT,Ð ¨+p$, ÐDAVID?€€THE€TWO€ALTERNATIVES€THAT€ARE€LAID€THERE€ARE€ATÏTHE€OPTION€OF€THE€STATE,€BUT€AS€I€READ€THE€PROPOSAL,€THEÏSTATES€COULD€MAINTAIN€THE€RESTRICTIONS€AS€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€IF€THE€STATE€WANTED€TO€BE€MOREÐ 0 ø ÐSTRINGENT€AND€DISALLOW€ANY€USE€OF€PRIOR€SHUTDOWNS,€THATÏWOULD€BE€ACCEPTABLE€TO€US.Ìà àà x àò òMR.KNAUSS:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð (ð  Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€I€THINK€I€KNOW€WHAT€YOUR€ANSWERРИ  ÐIS€GOING€TO€BE,€BUT€GO€AHEAD,€DAVID.Ìà àà x àò òMR.HAWKINS:ó ó€€I€HAVE€A€HARD€TIME€REGARDINGÐ  è ÐTHAT€AS€A€SERIOUS€RESPONSE.€€I€MEAN€THE€FACT€IS€THATÏWHILE€THE€STATES€HAVE€THE€THEORETICAL€POTENTIAL,€THEREÏARE€MANY€PEOPLE€AROUND€THIS€TABLE€WHO€WOULD€BE€IN€WITHÏBOTH€GUNS€BLAZING€ARGUING€THAT€THE€STATES€SHOULD€NOTÏEXERCISE€THAT€AUTHORITY€IF€THEY€SOUGHT€TO€DO€SO.Ìà àà x àò òMR.SOLOMON:ó ó€€RIGHT.€€AND€WE€RECOGNIZE€THEREÐ  Ø ÐARE€MANY€STATES€WHO€REGULATE€--€WHO€ARE€NOT€ALLOWED€TOÏBE€MORE€STRINGENT€BY€THEIR€OWN€STATE€LAW€THAN€THEÏFEDERAL€RULES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€BERNIE.Ð °&x& Ðà àà x àò òMR.BERNIE€PAUL:ó ó€€BERNIE€PAUL,€WITH€ELIÐ X( !( ÐLILLY.€€I€HAVE€A€CLARIFYING€QUESTION€REGARDING€A€CLASSÏOF€COMPOUNDS.€€I'M€NOT€SURE€WHETHER€THEY€WOULD€BEÐ ¨+p$, ÐCONSIDERED€REGULATED€AIR€POLLUTANTS€OR€NOT.€€IÏAPPRECIATE€THE€FACT€THAT€THERE€IS€A€PROPOSAL€TO€CREATE€AÏSIGNIFICANT€MODIFICATION€DEFINITION€FOR€"OZONE-DEPLETINGÏSUBSTANCES"€AND€THE€REMOVAL€OF€THE€HAP€COMPOUNDS€THATÏFORMERLY€HAD€SIGNIFICANT€MODIFICATION€DEFINITIONS.Ìà àà x àTHERE'S€A€GROUP€OF€COMPOUNDS€OUT€THERE€UNDERÏTHE€SNAP€PROGRAM,€WHICH€IS€UNDER€TITLE€VI€DEALING€WITHÏALTERNATIVES€TO€OZONE-DEPLETING€SUBSTANCES.€€SINCE€THEYÏARE€IN€THE€REGULATIONS,€I'M€NOT€SURE€WHETHER€THEY€AREÏREGULATED€AIR€POLLUTANTS€OR€NOT,€AND€I€WOULD€LIKE€THEÏAGENCY€TO€TAKE€A€LOOK€AT€THAT€TO€MAKE€SURE€THAT€WEÏAREN'T€SOMEHOW€THROWING€THOSE€COMPOUNDS€INTO€THE€PSDÏPROGRAM€INADVERTENTLY.€€ONE,€IN€PARTICULAR,€IS€AMMONIA.€ÏIT€IS€A€VOC,€SO€IT'S€NEVER€BEEN€IN€THERE€BEFORE,€BUT€ITÏIS€SNAP€COMPOUND.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€I€DON'T€--€I€DON'TÐ  Ø ÐTHINK€THE€AGENCY€WAS€INTENDING€TO€DO€THAT,€BUT€YOU'VEÏRAISED€THE€POINT.€€THAT'S€EXACTLY€WHAT€A€FACA€IS€ALLÏABOUT,€TO€RAISE€THOSE€KINDS€OF€ISSUES€FROM€THE€OUTSIDEÏAND€ASK€THE€AGENCY€TO€BE€SURE€THAT€THAT'S€THE€SITUATION.Ìà àà x àJOHN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUT:ó ó€€GETTING€BACK€TO€THE€SHUTDOWNÐ *È"* ÐCREDITS,€THE€STAPPA/ALAPCO€DRAFT€COMMENTS€AT€THIS€POINTÐ ¨+p$, ÐARE€GOING€TO€SUGGEST€THAT€ALTERNATIVE€(2)€BE€ADOPTED.€ÏNOTWITHSTANDING€THE€TRUTH€THAT€THERE€ARE€SOMEÏNONATTAINMENT€AREAS€THAT€ARE€HAVING€TROUBLE€WITH€THEIRÏATTAINMENT€DEMONSTRATES,€WHAT€WE'RE€GOING€TO€SUGGEST€ISÏTHAT€THESE€SHUTDOWN€CREDITS,€THESE€REDUCTIONS,€AREÏREALLY€PART€OF€THE€TOTAL€AIR€RESOURCE,€AND€WE€BELIEVEÏTHAT€THE€STATES€AND€LOCALS€SHOULD€BE€HELD€RESPONSIBLEÏAND€ACCOUNTABLE€FOR€DEALING€WITH€THAT€AIR€RESOURCE,ÏCOMING€UP€WITH€ATTAINMENT€PLANS€THAT€ARE€WORKABLE,€ANDÏALSO€ALLOWING€THE€OPPORTUNITY€FOR€ECONOMIC€DEVELOPMENT.€Ìà àà x àONE€OF€THE€--€THE€NEWER€CONCEPTS€WHICH€WEÏCLEARLY€HAVE€SEEN€IN€THE€LOUISVILLE€AREA€IS€THEÏJOBS-PER-TON€CONCEPT,€AND,€BELIEVE€ME,€THE€ECONOMICÏDEVELOPMENT€FOLKS€HAVE€TOLD€COMPANIES€THAT€THEÏJOBS-PER-TON€WAS€NOT€HIGH€ENOUGH€AND€SAID€WE€DON'TÏREALLY€HAVE€A€PLACE€FOR€YOU€HERE.Ìà àà x àSO€THE€MESSAGE€IS€COMING€ACROSS.€€WE€AREÏLOOKING€AT€THESE€AS€A€RESOURCE.€€AND,€YES,€THEY€CAN€BEÏUSED€FOR€ECONOMIC€DEVELOPMENT€OR€FOR€SOLVINGÏNONATTAINMENT€PROBLEMS.€BUT€WE€BELIEVE€THAT€THE€STATEÏOR€LOCALS€SHOULD€HAVE€THE€OPPORTUNITY€TO€DECIDE€HOW€THEYÏWANT€TO€USE€THAT€RESOURCE.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ANY€OTHER€--€PRAVEEN?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€A€CLARIFYING€QUESTION€WITHÐ 8 ÐRESPECT€TO€NUMBER€9€HERE,€THE€"MAJOR€THRESHOLD€VALUES."€ÏAND€I'M€WONDERING,€ARE€WE€GOING€TO€TAKE€ADVANTAGE€OF€THEÏTIMING.€€I€HEARD€YESTERDAY€THAT€WE€GO€THROUGH€NSRÏPROCESS€EVERY€FIFTEEN€YEARS,€SO€THE€ISSUE€OF€FINEÏPARTICLE€STANDARD-SETTING€BY€EPA€MAY€HAPPEN€NEXT€YEAR,ÏAND€I€SEE€THE€LANGUAGE€WITH€RESPECT€TO€THRESHOLD€FORÏPM-10.€€BUT€HOW€DOES€ONE€HANDLE€NOW,€KNOWING€WHAT€MIGHTÏHAPPEN€NEXT€YEAR,€WHAT€TO€DO€FOR€THE€PRECURSORS€FOR€FINEÏPARTICLES?€€THAT€COULD€BECOME€A€VERY€MAJOR€ISSUE,€ANDÏTHERE'S€NO€REFERENCE€AT€THIS€TIME€HERE€TO€FINEÏPARTICLES.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ANY€THOUGHTS€BY€THE€AGENCY€WITHÐ à ÐREGARD€TO€THAT?€Ìà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€WELL,€THERE€IS€A€FACA€PROCESSÐ h0 ÐGOING€ON€NOW€DEALING€WITH€FINE€PARTICLES,€OBVIOUSLY,€ANDÏWE€ARE€CONTRIBUTING€TO€THE€--€BOTH€THE€INTERIM€AND€THEÏLONG-TERM€POLICY€THAT€WILL€BE€USED€TO€IMPLEMENT€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€SO€WOULD€WE€HAVE€TIME€TO€HAVEÐ %Ð$ ÐTHAT€KIND€OF€RESOLUTION€TO€SHOW€UP€IN€THE€LANGUAGE€HEREÏNEXT€YEAR?Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€I€THINK€IT€WILL€DEPEND€ON€THEÐ *È"* ÐTIMING€OF€THE€FACA€PROCESS,€--Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€OF€COURSE.€€Ð 8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€--€YOU€KNOW.€€IF€WE€GET€AРਠÐRECOMMENDATION,€WHICH€WE€HOPE€TO,€FROM€THE€FACA€BEFORE,ÏWELL-BEFORE,€THIS€PACKAGE€GOES€FINAL,€THEN€WE€COULD€TRYÏTO€FOLD€SOMETHING€INTO€IT.€€I€THINK€IT'S€PREMATURE€ATÏTHIS€POINT.€€AS€DAN€SAYS,€WE'RE€TRYING€TO€SORT€IT€OUT€INÏTHE€FACA€PROCESS,€BUT€WE€COULD€FOLD€IT€IN€IF€WE€GETÏSOMETHING€SOON.Ìà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€IF€THE€TIMING€IS€RIGHT.€Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð  è Ðà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð È Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€IF€NOT€THOUGH,€OBVIOUSLY,Ð p8 ÐSOMETHING€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€WE€WILL€BE€IN€THE€YEAR€2005€--Ð Àˆ Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð h0 Ðà àà x àò òMR.AMAR:ó ó€€--€FIGURING€OUT€WHAT€PM-2.5Ð  Ø ÐMEANS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð `#(" Ðà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€NO,€I€THINK€WE'LL€PROBABLYÐ %Ð$ ÐFIGURE€IT€OUT€A€LITTLE€BEFORE€THEN.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ANY€OTHER€GENERAL€COMMENTS€FROMÐ X( !( ÐTHE€COMMITTEE€MEMBERS,€EITHER€ON€MISCELLANEOUS€ISSUES€ORÏTHE€òòCLEAN€AIR€ACTóó€IMPLEMENTING€REVISIONS?Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àKAREN?Ìà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:€€JUST€A€FEW€MISCELLANEOUSРਠÐCOMMENTS.€€THERE€WERE€A€NUMBER€OF€REFERENCES€ó óTHROUGHOUTÐ ˆ P ÐTHE€DAY€TO€THE€PROBLEM€OF€EXISTING€SOURCES.€€WE€DID€HAVEÏAN€EXISTING€SOURCES€WORKGROUP,€AND,€AS€I€RECALL,€THEREÏWERE€SOME€EFFORTS€AND€SOME€POINTS€THAT€WE€HAD€CONSENSUSÏON.€€Ìà àà x àAND€ONE€WAS€BEING€--€WAS€ON€INCREMENTÏTRACKING€AND€THAT€THERE€NEEDS€--€THAT€NEEDS€TO€BE€DONEÏCUMULATIVELY,€CONSISTENTLY€ACROSS€THE€BOARD,€AND€WE€NEEDÏSOME€GUIDANCE€ON€HOW€TO€DO€THAT.€€SOME€STATES€ARE€DOINGÏIT€FAIRLY€WELL,€AND€OTHERS€ARE€JUST€SORT€OF€TURNING€THEÏOTHER€WAY.€€AND€THAT€WHEN€INCREMENT€IS,€IN€FACT,ÏVIOLATED,€THERE€WOULD€BE€SIP€CALLS.€€SO€I€WOULD€ASK€EPAÏTO€RECONSIDER€THAT€AND€HOW€THAT€COULD€BE€WORKED€INTOÏTHIS€PACKAGE.€Ìà àà x àAND€THE€OTHER€POINT€IS€REALLY€A€QUESTION.€ÏRICH€MENTIONED€THAT€WE€SAT€IN€ON€PART€OF€THE€FACAÏWORKGROUP€MEETING€YESTERDAY€PERTAINING€TO€NEW€SOURCEÏREVIEW€OR,€I€GUESS,€NEW€SOURCE€ISSUES,€AND€THAT€GROUPÏSEEMS€TO€BE€UNDER€THE€IMPRESSION€THAT€THEY'RE€GOING€TOÏTURN€OVER€A€FRAMEWORK€OF€A€NEW€PROGRAM€OVER€TO€US,€THISÏSUBCOMMITTEE,€TO€WORK€OUT€THE€DETAILS,€AND€I€DIDN'TÐ ¨+p$, ÐTHINK€WE€WERE€MEETING€AGAIN.€€I€JUST€WANTED€TO€GET€AÏCLARIFICATION€ON€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€I'M€GOING€TO€HAVE€TO€GET€AÐ ˆ P ÐCLARIFICATION.€€I€NOTED€RICH'S€COMMENT€THERE,€AND€I'MÏGOING€TO€HAVE€TO€TALK€TO€THEM.€€BUT€WHICH€GROUP€WERE€YOUÏTALKING€WITH€YESTERDAY,€RICH?€€OR€YOU€CAN€TELL€MEÏAFTERWARDS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.FISHER:ó ó€€FAC€PROGRAMS€--РИ  Ðà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€FAC€PROGRAMS.Ð x@  Ðà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€YEAH,€AND€IT'S€A€NEW€SOURCESÐ  è ÐSUBGROUP€OF€THAT.€Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€RIGHT.€Ð p8 Ðà àà x àò òMS.MALKIN:ó ó€€YEAH.Ð à Ðà àà x àò òMR.DEROECK:ó ó€€THIS€WAS€A€WORKING€GROUP,€ANDÐ Àˆ ÐTHEY€WILL€BE€PRESENTING€RECOMMENDATIONS€TO€THEIRÏSUBCOMMITTEE.€€SO,€I€MEAN,€AT€THIS€POINT€IT'S€EVENÏANYTHING€OFFICIAL.Ìà àà x àò òMS.WEGMAN:ó ó€€YEAH,€BUT€WE€WILL€FOLLOW€UP,Ð `#(" ÐRICH,€AND€TRY€TO€SEE€WHERE€IT'S€GOING.€Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€ANY€OTHER€GENERALÐ °&x& ÐCOMMENTS?Ìà àà x àJOHN,€IS€YOUR€SIGN€UP€OR€DOWN?Ìà àà x àò òMR.TROUT:ó ó€€OH,€I'M€SORRY.Ð ¨+p$, Ðà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THAT'S€ALL€RIGHT.€€WE'REÐ 8 ÐFORMALISTIC€ON€THESE€SIGNS€HERE.Ìà àà x àIF€THERE€ARE€NO€ADDITIONAL€COMMENTS€FROM€THEÏCOMMITTEE€MEMBERS,€ARE€THERE€ANY€COMMENTS€FROM€THEÏPUBLIC€IN€THE€AUDIENCE€WITH€RESPECT€TO€ANY€OF€THE€ISSUESÏTHAT€HAVE€BEEN€DISCUSSED€TODAY€OR€ANY€OF€THE€ISSUES€INÏTHE€PACKAGE?€€Ìà àà x àYES,€SIR.€€IF€YOU€COULD,€IDENTIFY€YOURSELFÏFOR€THE€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.BESSETTE:ó ó€€MY€NAME€IS€BOB€BESSETTE.€€I'MÐ  è ÐWITH€THE€COUNCIL€OF€INDUSTRY€BOILER€OWNERS.Ìà àà x àONE€QUESTION.€€I'VE€LEARNED€SOME€THINGS.€ÏI'M€JUST€NEW€TO€WASHINGTON,€SO€I'M€SORT€OF€NEW€AT€THIS.€ÏI'M€A€COUNTRY€BOY.€€BUT€I€WAS€DRIVING€DOWN€ON€FOURTEENTHÏSTREET€ONE€DAY€--Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€THAT'S€NOT€THE€COUNTRY,€BOB.Ð  Ø Ðà àà x àò òMR.BESSETTE:ó ó€€NO.€€I€LEARNED€SOMETHING.€Ð ¸!€  ÐTWO€PEOPLE€CAME€UP€TO€ME,€ONE€WITH€A€SQUIRT€BOTTLE€AND€AÏSQUEEGEE,€AND€THEY€KNOCKED€ON€MY€WINDOW.€€THEY€ASKED€MEÏIF€I€WANTED€TO€WASH€MY€WINDOW.€€I€JUST€HAD€MY€CARÏCLEANED€THAT€MORNING,€BUT€I€SAID,€"NO,€MY€WINDOW€ISÏCLEAN."Ìà àà x àHE€KNOCKED€AGAIN,€AND€HE€SAYS,€"ARE€YOUÐ ¨+p$, ÐSURE?"€€AND€HE€SAID,€"MY€BUDDY€IS€STANDING€OVER€THERE."€Ìà àà x àAND€I€LOOKED€OVER€AND€I€SEEN€"MY€BUDDY"€WITHÏA€BAT.€€I€SAID,€"YEAH.€€HOW€MUCH?"Ìà àà x àHE€SAID,€"TWO€BUCKS."Ìà àà x àI€SAID,€"DO€IT."Ìà àà x àIF€I€CAN€--€IF€YOU€CAN€WRITE€INTO€THISÏREGULATION€THAT€FOR€$50,000,€THAT€SAME€EXTORTION€MONEY,ÏTHAT€I€CAN€TAKE€CARE€OF€THE€FLM€VERSUS€AN€UNKNOWN€EFFECTÏ--€AN€UNKNOWN,€UNDEFINED€EFFECT€--€ON€ME€AND€MYÏPOTENTIAL€TO€IMPACT€MY€FACILITY€IN€THE€FUTURE,€I€WOULDÏBE€VERY,€VERY€HAPPY.€€BECAUSE€ANYTIME€WE€CAN€MAKE€AÏDECISION€BASED€ON€FACT,€WE€CAN€MOVE€THE€COUNTRY€FORWARD,ÏAND€I€CAN€MOVE€THE€PLANTS€FORWARD.€€WHEN€I€DON'T€HAVEÏTHOSE€FACTS,€WHEN€I€DON'T€HAVE€THEM,€YOU€STOP€EVERYTHINGÏFLAT.Ìà àà x àTHANKS.Ìà àà x àò òMR.RAHER:ó ó€€ALL€RIGHT.€€WE'LL€PUT€THAT€NOTÐ ¸!€  ÐTHE€TABLE€FOR€EPA€AND€ENSURE€YOUR€--€FOR€GENERALÏCOUNSEL'S€OFFICE€TO€DISCUSS.€Ìà àà x àYES,€SIR.Ìà àà x àò òMR.EMERY:ó ó€€YES,€SIR.€€MY€NAME€ISÐ X( !( ÐDAVIDEMERY.€€I'M€WITH€PHILLIPS€PETROLEUM.€€I€TESTIFIEDÏYESTERDAY€ON€BEHALF€OF€API€ABOUT€THE€CLASSI€AREASÐ ¨+p$, ÐAMONGST€OTHER€DETAILS,€AND€I'VE€HEARD€A€NUMBER€OF€THINGSÏHERE€WHICH€WERE€VERY€NEW€TO€ME.€€I€MUST€ADMIT€THAT€IÏHAVE€NOT€BEEN€PART€OF€THIS€PROCESS€FOR€TWO€OR€THREEÏYEARS€OR€THE€FOUR€YEARS,€APPARENTLY,€THAT€YOU'VE€ALLÏENJOYED€WORKING€ON€THIS€ISSUE.€€BUT€I€HAVE€--€YEAH,€IÏDON'T€KNOW€IF€ANYBODY'S€ENJOYING€THIS€TOO€MUCH.€€Ìà àà x àI€HAVE€READ€THE€RULE,€AND€THERE€WAS€A€COUPLEÏOF€THINGS€THAT€I€WANTED€TO€SAY€ON€BEHALF€OF€API,€OR€ATÏLEAST€ON€BEHALF€OF€MYSELF€HERE,€AND,€FIRST,€TO€EPA.€€YOUÏTALKED€A€NUMBER€OF€TIMES€ABOUT€YOUR€"INTENT"€IN€THEÏCLASSI€AREA,€AND€I€WANT€TO€TELL€YOU€NO€ONE€THINKS€THATÏYOU'RE€INTENDING€TO€DO€SOMETHING€WRONG,€OR€WE'RE€NOTÏTRYING€TO€ASCRIBE€EVIL€INTENT€TO€YOUR€WRITING€THE€RULE.ÌWHAT€WE€SAID€YESTERDAY€MEANS€THAT€WE€READ€THE€RULE,€ANDÏOUR€READING€OF€THE€RULE€SHOWS€THAT€IT'S€ABSOLUTELY€ANÏUNWORKABLE€PROGRAM.€€I€DON'T€THINK€THAT€WAS€YOUR€INTENT.€ÏWE€THINK€THAT'S€THE€WAY€IT€IS.Ìà àà x àI'D€ALSO€LIKE€TO€SAY€THAT€I'M€NOT€PERSUADEDÏBY€MR.HAWKINS€TELLING€US€THAT€WE€JUST€MISREAD€THE€RULE,ÏAND€I€DON'T€THINK€I'D€BE€EMPLOYED€VERY€LONG€IF€I€LETÏNRCD€LAWYERS€READ€THE€RULES€FOR€MY€COMPANY.€€ALTHOUGHÏI'M€SURE€HE€HAS€MORE€KNOWLEDGE€ABOUT€THIS€THAN€MYSELF,ÏIT€STILL€--€WE€HAVE€TO€GO€OFF€OUR€READING€OF€THE€RULE,Ð ¨+p$, 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